The Scots Should be Added to Civ3 in the New XP?

Do You Agree that the Scots should be in the New XP?

  • Yes

    Votes: 15 31.9%
  • No

    Votes: 26 55.3%
  • Unsure/ Don't Care

    Votes: 6 12.8%

  • Total voters
    47
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Pangur Bán

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I think that the new civs should go to non-European areas. But since it is possible that another few European civs will go into the XP, the Scots are a natural choice. So many people are saying that Hungary, Poland and Holland should go in, but in my opinion, the Scots have a much stronger case.

Why should a civilization that is small today and lost its political independence in 1707 be included?

Golden Age

Scotland had a golden age as great and significant as any other golden age in history. All the Union did for the first century or so was take away the right of the Scots to decide foreign policy alone and added to their trading power. Civic Scotland retained its independence. Knox had wished to establish a new Christian civilization in Scotland. Presbyterian Scotland was the New Jerusalem and the new Athens respectively, to the religious and intellectuals who lived in it. The Scottish Enlightenment’s achievements were colossal because of the private self-confidence everyone had. Religion was important, but no other golden age has done more damage to Religion or Science. The Scottish Enlightenment challenged and promoted both.

The Enlightenment in Scotland was important partly because it created the idea that the Arts could be studied like a science. This is why people say that the Scottish Enlightenment created the “Social Sciences”. Their approach was that Human beings should be the subject of scientific investigation. This form of extreme humanism was not totally unique, but it is the form that forms the basis of the western education system today.

It was an age where Hume demolished causation just as he demolished Christian concepts of morality, the Soul/ Self and miracles . If the basis of religion is the soul and revelation, he undermined both. The problem of the Self raised by Hume has only been ignored, and never effectively challenged. No one can believe in any afterlife, any soul-issuing God, etc, without ignoring the challenge. As if religion weren't enough, his scepticism and attack on causation undermine the foundation of science as we know it. The problem of causation, which Hume raised, has only ever been effectively ignored, never solved, although frequently complicated. He undermined the idea of causation as it was universally when he wrote, and as it is now among virtually all people. The problems raised by Hume are catastrophic for human thinking in general.

But it was also an age where figures, like Hutton, who is regarded as the father of geology, suggested that the Earth was a lot older than the Bible said it was.

It was an age where Smith provided what was basically the outline of Market
Economy in capitalistic terms. Economics started as a discipline in the Scottish Enlightenment. It was an age where Adam Ferguson introduced the method of studying humankind in groups and is father of the subject now called "Sociology” and where Hume’s methods arguably make him the real father of psychology

It was an age where James MacPherson kicked off Romantic literature all over the Western world with his discovery of the Celtic Homer. His poems were later discovered to be mostly fraudulent, but the impact was immense. The Romantic Movement was thereafter associated with ancient folk tales and the like, making successful the works of Scott, the Grimm Brothers and Wagner.

An age where Walter Scott was the greatest literary figure in Europe, with his new style of work, the historical novel. Scott not only invented the historical novel, but he made the novel itself something that fashionable people could read.
 
Scottish Contributions to the World in General

Perhaps if you don't think the concept of the "Social Science", or market economics, television, telephone, logarithms, penicillin, and radar are important you will think the Scots are unimportant. But here is a list of contributions I found on another forum:

John Logie Baird (1888 - 1946)

Engineer. Inventor of the television and later developed ideas such as colour, 3-D and large screen television. Also took out a patent on fibre-optics, a technology now used to carry many telephone calls and traffic on the Internet.

Arthur James Balfour (First Earl of Balfour) (1848 - 1930)

Politician. British Prime Minister between 1902 and 1906. The "Balfour Declaration" of 1917 promised the Zionists a home in Palestine

Sir James Barrie (1860 - 1937)

Author and Playwright. Best known for the creation of Peter Pan, the boy who would not grow up.

Alexander Graham Bell (1847 - 1922)

Born in Edinburgh. Bell became the inventor of the telephone in 1876.

Rev. Patrick Bell (1800 - 1869)

Invented the reaping machine which was a direct precursor of the modern combine harvester.

Joseph Black (1728 - 1799)

Chemist. Professor of Anatomy and Chemistry in Glasgow University (1756) and then Professor of Medicine and Chemistry in Edinburgh (1766). Developed the concept of "Latent Heat" and discovered Carbon Dioxide ("Fixed Air"). Regarded as the Father of Quantitative Chemistry.

Sir Thomas Makdougall Brisbane (1773 - 1860)

Soldier and Astronomer, born in Largs, Ayrshire. Governor-General of the Australian state of New South-Wales. Set up an observatory and catalogued more than 7000 stars. The city of Brisbane (Australia) is named after him.

Alexander Crum Brown (1838 - 1922)

Organic chemist, born in Edinburgh. He studied in London and Leipzig before returning to Edinburgh in 1863, holding the chair of Chemistry, which now bears his name, until his death. He devised the system of representing chemical compounds in diagrammatic form, with connecting lines representing bonds.

George Brown (1818 - 1880)

Politician and a founding father of Canada, born and educated in Edinburgh. As an Ontario politician, he favoured a federation of the British Colonies in North America and spoke against the French Canadians, developing the deep divisions that persist today. Founder and editor of the "Toronto Globe".

James Bruce (1730 - 1794)

Explorer, born in Stirlingshire. Discovered the source of the Blue Nile in 1770. Was congratulated by the French, but the English did not believe him.

John Buchan (Baron Tweedsmuir) (1875 - 1940)

Author, biographer and politician. Perhaps best known for "The Thirty-Nine Steps". Was also a member of parliament and Governor-General of Canada.

Andrew Carnegie (1835 - 1918)

U.S. iron and steel magnate and great philanthropist. Born in Dunfermline, in Fife. One of the first 3 great corporate tycoons of America. Gave a considerable proportion of his fortune to the benefit of Scotland, including substantial educational endowments and 10,000 church organs.

James Chalmers (1782 - 1853)

Dundee Inventor, Bookseller and Newspaper publisher. Invented the adhesive postage stamp, which made Rowland Hill's Penny Postal service a practical proposition.

Sir Hugh Dalrymple (Lord Drummore) (1700 - 1753)

Invented hollow-pipe drainage. This innovation allowed the drying of waterlogged land, bringing large areas into agricultural production.

Sir James Dewar (1842 - 1923)

Physicist and Chemist, born in Kincardine, Fife. Inventor of the vacuum flask.

Robert Dinwiddie (1693 - 1770)

Born near Glasgow, was the Lieutenant-Governor of Virginia. He insisted that the colonies should raise money for their own protection. Discovered George Washington's talents and sent him to resist the French. Thus he was an important figure in American History and has been called the "Grandfather of the United States".

Sir John Sholto Douglas (8th Marquis of Queensberry) (1844 - 1900)

Devised the "Queensberry Rules" for boxing in 1867. Was tried for libelling the Irish playwright Oscar Wilde, who was said to be having a homosexual relationship with Douglas' son, Lord Alfred. This action led to Wilde's disgrace and imprisonment.

John Boyd Dunlop (1840 - 1921)

Inventor. Developed the pneumatic tyre which was to improve the comfort of cyclists and later motorists. Contrary to popular opinion, Dunlop did not invent the pneumatic tyre, it was actually invented by Robert William Thomson.

Adam Ferguson (1723 - 1816)

Born in Logierait, Perthshire, he became Professor of Moral Philosophy at Edinburgh. He introduced the method of studying humankind in groups and is father of the subject now called "Sociology".

Sir Alexander Fleming (1881 - 1955)

Born in Ayrshire, he discovered the world's first antibiotic drug - Penicillin. This was as a result of an "accident" where mould was allowed to grow on a bacterial culture. Fleming was knighted and received the Nobel Prize in 1944.

Sir Sandford Fleming (1827 - 1915)

Canadian railway engineer, born in Kirkcaldy. Surveyed many of the major Canadian railway routes. Became Chief Engineer of the Canadian Pacific Railway in 1872. In 1884, devised the system of standard time which is internationally recognised.

Patrick Gordon (1635 - 1699)

From Auchleuchries, became a soldier of fortune, and served with the armies of Poland and Sweden. Joined Russian army, became the commander-in-chief of Peter the Great, his chief advisor and pioneered the modernization of the Russian army. Saved Peter from overthrow.

Thomas Graham (1805 - 1869)

Born in Glasgow and educated at Glasgow University. Formulated "Graham's Law" on the diffusion of gases. Father of colloid chemistry.

James Gregory (1638 - 1675)

Inventor of the reflecting telescope, which was developed three years later by the Englishman Sir Isaac Newton.

Earl Haig (1861 - 1928)

Field Marshall. Commanded the allied troops on the Western Front during the First World War. Founded the Earl Haig Fund for the assistance of disabled ex-servicemen (poppy appeal).

David Octavius Hill (1802 - 1870)

Pioneer of Photography, also a Portrait and Landscape Painter.

David Hume (1711 - 1776)

Philosopher, agnostic and leading figure of the Scottish Enlightenment. History's leading sceptic. Hume wrote on human nature, politics and introduced the concept of social history.


James Hutton (1726 - 1797)

Father of modern Geology. His theory of Uniformitarianism was the basis of the explanation of the geological history of the earth, which had in his words "no vestige of a beginning, no concept of an end". Published his "Theory of the Earth" in 1785.

David Livingstone (1813 - 1873)

Explorer and medical missionary. First white man to travel the length of Lake Tanganyika, discovered Victoria Falls and set out to discover the source of the Nile, but died before achieving his aim. When Henry Stanley was sent to look for Livingstone, he uttered the famous greeting "Dr Livingstone, I presume".

John McAdam (1756 - 1836)

Surveyor and builder of roads. Developed the process of "Macadamisation" which involves covering a road with small broken stones to form a hard surface. This led to tarmacadam (or tarmac), which is still used to cover roads today.

James Ramsay MacDonald (1866 - 1937)

Politician and British Prime Minister. Led the first Labour government in 1924.

Sir John Alexander MacDonald (1815 - 1891)

First Prime Minister of Canada. Born in Glasgow, died in Ottawa, Canada. He was central to bringing about the confederation of Canada (1867) and the construction of the Canadian Pacific Railway.

Kirkpatrick Macmillan (1813 - 1878)

Inventor. Invented the bicycle, but never patented it and it was therefore widely copied.

Sir Alexander Mackenzie (1764 - 1820)

Born on the Isle of Lewis. Immigrated to Canada and worked as a fur trader. The first to journey down the river which bears his name.

James MacPherson (1736-1796)

Writer who "discovered" the Ossian poems, which kicked off Romantic literature all over the world. The poems were later discovered to be mostly fraudulent, but the impact was immense. The Romantic Movement was thereafter associated with ancient folk tales and the like, making successful the works of Scott, the Grimm Brothers and Wagner.

James Clerk Maxwell (1831 - 1879)

Mathematician and Physicist. Contributed significantly to the study of electro-magnetism and prepared the way for quantum physics. Ranks along with Newton and Einstein as one of the World's greatest physicists.

Sir Roderick Impey Murchison (1792 - 1871)

Geologist and Geographer. Born in Tarradale. In 1835 he established the Silurian geological system, and with Sedgwick, the Devonian system. Led a survey of the Russian Empire (1840 - 1845) and predicted the discovery of gold in Australia. A founder of the Royal Geological Society of London. The Murchison Falls (Uganda) and the Murchison River (Australia) are named after him.

John Napier (1550 - 1617)

Mathematician and Astronomer. Devised "Napier's Rods" or "Napier's Bones" which permitted easy multiplication by addition, and this led to him defining the concept of logarithms. Also invented the decimal point.

James Beaumont Neilson (1792 - 1865)

Invented the hot blast oven, which was a great advance in the iron industry. His process reduced the amount of coal needed to produce iron, and greatly increased efficiency to satisfy the demands of the railway and shipbuilding industries.

Mungo Park (1771 - 1806)

Explorer. He mapped large areas of the interior of Africa for the first time, determined the course of the Niger and died trying to find its source.

Sir Walter Scott (1771 - 1832)

Great Scottish patriot, writer and poet. Educated at the Old High School in Edinburgh, he then studied Law at the University of Edinburgh and became an advocate. He did much towards identifying and nurturing a Scottish cultural identity. His literary works include the Waverley Novels, but also he was a translator, biographer (of Napoleon) and passionate collector of all things Scottish. He was buried in the ruins of Dryburgh Abbey.

John Duns Scotus (1265 - 1308)

Philosopher and Theologian. Reknowned for his scepticism, which led to the word "Dunses" or "Dunces" being used to describe those who were regarded as not being very clever. In 1991, the Vatican elevated Scotus to the status of "venerable", the first step on the route to Saint-hood.

Michael Scott (c.1175 - c.1230)

Medieval alchemist and Arabic Scholar who was the tutor to the Emperor Frederick II, a man whose influence on western history is immeasurable.

Sir James Young Simpson (1811 - 1870)

Obstetrician, and son of a baker. Pioneer in the use of anaesthetics, particularly chloroform, developing its use in surgery and midwifery. He championed its use against medical and religious opposition. Queen Victoria used chloroform during childbirth, and this brought general acceptance. Also pioneered obstetric techniques and responsible for much reform of hospital practice.

James Small (1730 - 1793)

Inventor of the iron plough, replacing the existing cumbersome and less robust wooden ploughs.

Adam Smith (1723 - 1790)

Economist. His book "Inquiry into the Nature and Causes of the Wealth of Nations" was the corner stone of the concept of political economy. Born in Kirkaldy, he was a professor at the University of Glasgow.

Robert Louis Stevenson (1850 - 1894)

Author. His works included "Kidnapped" and "Treasure Island". Suffered from poor health and died in Samoa.

Dugald Stewart (1753 - 1828)

Published "Outlines of Moral Philosophy". A follower of the Common-Sense Philosophy, he systematised the doctrine of the Scottish School, allowing full share to psychological considerations.

Robert William Thomson (1822 - 1873)

Invented the vulcanised rubber pneumatic tyre. He patented his invention in 1845, which was successfully tested in London, however it was abandoned because it was thought too expensive for common use. The tyre was re-invented by John Dunlop in 1888. Thomson's invention is commemorated by a plaque in his native Stonehaven. He also patented the fountain pen (1849) and a steam traction engine (1867).

William Thomson (Lord Kelvin of Largs) (1824 - 1907)

Mathematician and Physicist. Brought up in Scotland, although born in Ireland, he is perhaps best known for the absolute temperature scale which takes his name (Kelvin).

Sir Robert Alexander Watson-Watt (1892 - 1973)

Physicist, born in Brechin. Developed and introduced RADAR during World War II.

James Watt (1736 - 1819)

Developed the steam engine into a practical source of power and invented the governor as a control device

There is more info on this thread:


http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=51100
 
The Celtic-Frankish State

Scotland in origin was the only Celtic kingdom to survive the Dark Ages. It was the most sophisticated kingdom in Celtic history in terms of political strength and kingship. It’s great kings, like Malcolm III, introduced Frankish customs and Frankish knights from England, France and Flanders to ensure the power of royal authority over its Celtic subjects, a process which weakened the nation’s Celticness, but gave it a Celtic-Frankish distinctiveness unique to Scotland, a “feudal” system based on kinship. The Frankification culminated in the reign of the Stewarts, one of the most prestigious dynasties in Europe at the time, who acquired England. Scottish soldiers pioneered a new type of warfare in the 14th century that made heavy cavalry obsolete through the Schiltrom, and, despite the lies in that awful movie, Joan of Arc, Scots often made up the majority in French armies during the 100 Years War and won that War for the Caledonio-French coalition.

Scotland vs. the Netherlands

Holland was smaller than Scotland, it had less colonial impact, it's younger than Scotland, it's not as distinctive and, in my opinion, has achieved less. The Netherlands has very little strengths as a civ vis-à-vis the Scots. I truly find it impossible to understand the logic behind the view that the Dutch/ Netherlands should be included but the Scots shouldn’t. They had a few colonies in some parts of the third world, so what? Nothing of great significance. They produced some great men, but not in any extraordinary number, and very few who changed the world.

Scotland vs. Poland

Simple-minded people may point to the fact that Poland a large empire in the Middle Ages, but this doesn't matter. The terrain in that empire was very easy to conquer and rule, whereas Scottish topography is much more difficult absolutely. When the Romans had conquered modern day England and Wales they decided to spend a large proportion of their GDP on a massive wall rather than attempt to rule. In my opinion the unification of Scotland was a much greater achievement than the Polish Empire. If the Polish empire were really great it might just have survived the amount of time you'd expect for a people as large as the Poles. But no. If you are simple minded and you value only territory sizes, the Avars are a much better choice as are the Huns, the Australians, Canadians, Tibetans, and any significant nomad confederacy.

Scotland vs. Hungary

Hungary is a significant and important medieval Empire, a terror to the 9th and 10th century Germans and Slavs, later, bulwark of Latin Christiandom. I am actually aware now of Hungary's "golden Age" in the 19th century, but it pales in comparison with the Scottish Enlightenment, and I don't think any serious historian of the history of ideas would dispute that.

The Argument

Voltaire said at the height of the Enlightenment that "we all look to Scotland for all our ideas of civilization." He acknowledged what too many people nowadays forget, Scotland was not only important in its own right as a civilization, it was one of the most important. Just because it never had a big empire like the Mongols or the Huns, doesn't lessen this.
 
Very impressive altogether, I'm affraid you will be disappointed when C3:C comes out. However, I hope that eventually they will be added. As such, I believe that Firaxis could easily add some downloadable countries to their website. Considering the flexible setup of the systems, it's fairly easy to add all aspects of a new civ to the game (properties, leaderhead, king unit, UU, ...) No changes to the core would be needed, so this can be done outside the cycle of expansion packs and patches.
 
I voted 'Unsure', but after reading the article I have changed by mind to 'Yes'.

Note to self: Always read the post before voting. :rolleyes:
 
If there are enough people who want them, they should be added. That's the way I think the designers pick civs anyway.

One thing though: The original Celtics were made up of people from what was or became both Ireland and Scotland. Aren't they (the Celts) already in the game, PTW edition?

Edit:

BTW, who named your country "Scotland"? Was it your ancestors, or the English invaders?

I ask, because it seems that when the Irish or Scots want to show their "roots", they revert to the Celtic language and traditions.
 
I voted no, although I'd consider them as important as the Hittites, so I don't know
 
OMFG, how many crazy Scotsman are there on these forums?:D :crazyeye: I tell you what, Calgacus, send this post to Firaxis: they'll add the Scots to the game with the best and most comprehensive civilopedia entry ever...:lol:
 
Originally posted by Quandary
BTW, who named your country "Scotland"? Was it your ancestors, or the English invaders?

I ask, because it seems that when the Irish or Scots want to show their "roots", they revert to the Celtic language and traditions.

Scotii was Latin for Gaels. "Land" is obviously English. It is a combination of both. The name in Gaelic is Alba, which, strangely enough, might have originally meant Britain :)
 
Good to see a man/woman who is willing to say somthing. And thne back it up with more info than i could ever want about that subject! BRAVO! Now write the civilopidea evtries for the rest of the civs mmk?
 
I don't think the scots are different enough from the celts and the english to be included as a civ. I know a lot of people think different, especially all you crazy scots. :D But I'm stubborn, you wont assimilate me.:borg: I don't really need any other new europeans either. I want to see as many african civs as I can get.
 
Since scottland wont be in C3C, Vola, thanks to Sween32 you can add scottland to your game using his wonderfull animated leader head. Robert The Bruce
 
The Scots got back the Scone of Stone (anyone who has had a day-old scone will know what I'm talking about). Now they want to have their own civilization. As soon as they stop eating salty porridge, then they should be considered for inclusion in CIV3. Until then....
 
After that exhaustive post I would almost have voted 'yes', were it not for your dismissive attitude towards other civs, and I quote:

Scotland vs. the Netherlands

Holland was smaller than Scotland, it had less colonial impact, it's younger than Scotland, it's not as distinctive and, in my opinion, has achieved less. The Netherlands has very little strengths as a civ vis-à-vis the Scots. I truly find it impossible to understand the logic behind the view that the Dutch/ Netherlands should be included but the Scots shouldn’t. They had a few colonies in some parts of the third world, so what? Nothing of great significance. They produced some great men, but not in any extraordinary number, and very few who changed the world.

:rolleyes:

I submit that the only reason that the Scots had a colonial impact was because of Union. If we're talking colonial impact, the Portuguese have an even stronger right to be in.
Also, as a commercial civ, the Dutch blow the Scots away. I'd suggest Jonathan Israel's Rise and Fall of the Dutch Republic for a good view of the Dutch role in history.
Now I must admit that the discovery of the adhesive postage stamp revolutionized history, but I fail to see why Earl Haig, who sent hundreds of thousands of men to a senseless death is in any way a shining example of the greatness of Scotland.
 
No way, Europe is over repersented as it is, we need at least One African and One SE Asia Civ like Thai and one more South American. The only Europe one that should be included is East Europe like the Huns. :)
 
I accerpt that Scotland has a pretty good case for being in the new xp, but i dont think it is going to happen. From what ive read on these forums, pretty much everybody that doesnt live in the Uk doesnt even recignoise Scotland as being a country. This will include the programmers, and since they already have England, and the Celts in the game, then i very much doubt Scotland will be included :(

Anyhoooooo i voted yes, so that when i play civ i could get a sense of Patriotism :)

...and thats quite a long list you've got there calgacus :thumbsup: (methinks the clipboard feature was... exploited :p)
 
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