Provolution
Sage of Quatronia
I have stated it clearly, I will move three units onto the designated foodplain, two axemen and a keshik.
The Siege of Berlin 1260 AD
- Thread starter Provolution
- Start date
Why not just whack the Lb and be done with it? And the same goes for Berlin. We've got a large stack and the city has no defenses. The city should easily fall without dragging it out for 4 turns.
I agree with trying to whack the Lb with a Keshik, but the Lb already inside Berlin is looking mighty tough right now unless we decide to sacrifice some axes to wound it down to a manageable level. We need the Combat II/Cover Mace to be healty, which will take those extra turns.
The elephant is a problem and I'm fairly sure it will go for Cumae. The spear enroute will reach Cumae first at which point the odds will be in our favor, but some bad luck would leave us with insufficient defense against a 2nd attack. We could try to hit it with an axe to wound and the Mace w/Formation to kill if the axe wounds it enough.
The elephant is a problem and I'm fairly sure it will go for Cumae. The spear enroute will reach Cumae first at which point the odds will be in our favor, but some bad luck would leave us with insufficient defense against a 2nd attack. We could try to hit it with an axe to wound and the Mace w/Formation to kill if the axe wounds it enough.
Provolution
Sage of Quatronia
Daveshack hits the top of the nail here. My analysis is bordering his, the picture is more complex than a simple stack to assault a city the first turn.
Beyond two-dimensional thinking, be aware that the Roman peace lasts only for so long.
Romans got horses, Germans got Elephants. This means that anti-cavalry units primarily counts on the Roman border, as I soon will deal with the German elephant supply, cut off their trunk so to speak. The loose cannon elephant is still a liability, which will be handled by my present move.
Pursuing the longbow with a Keshik also makes a whole lot of sense, but not for a direct attack across the bridge, timing is essential.
For the city assault itself, we need to heal a couple of key units, then make the assault in an orderly and neat fasion. We do not need it the very first turn, but in a few turns. The promotions and skills of units in that stack makes them more than simple cannon fodder. Thanks to the lack of interest in vassalage civic, I will not squander my elite forces as unhealed cannon fodder in a high risk city assault like this. Keep that Soviet Doctrine for yourself.
We will get the city, with minimum losses, thanks to this strategy, in due time.
Beyond two-dimensional thinking, be aware that the Roman peace lasts only for so long.
Romans got horses, Germans got Elephants. This means that anti-cavalry units primarily counts on the Roman border, as I soon will deal with the German elephant supply, cut off their trunk so to speak. The loose cannon elephant is still a liability, which will be handled by my present move.
Pursuing the longbow with a Keshik also makes a whole lot of sense, but not for a direct attack across the bridge, timing is essential.
For the city assault itself, we need to heal a couple of key units, then make the assault in an orderly and neat fasion. We do not need it the very first turn, but in a few turns. The promotions and skills of units in that stack makes them more than simple cannon fodder. Thanks to the lack of interest in vassalage civic, I will not squander my elite forces as unhealed cannon fodder in a high risk city assault like this. Keep that Soviet Doctrine for yourself.
We will get the city, with minimum losses, thanks to this strategy, in due time.
Because the Keshik does not have "terrain costs", it seems its attack is not hampered by crossing the water. Testing this on a practice field shows that it has a 2/3 chance of success, even though it and the longbow are the same strength.
If we give the longbow time, it will enter the city where it would then be much stronger. Attack now, while we have this defender out in the open.
Provolution
Sage of Quatronia
I think I take my chances with the AI, he will not go around our position, and I want the Keshik to trust farther into enemy territory. However, with your proposal, the Keshik can be countered with a spearman from Berlin or the Königstramper. Which means we need a ministack on that tile regardless.
Sending in two axemen with anti-cavalry and anti archery promotions make sense. I think Axemen 5 and 8 does that. Daveshack, if this is the situation, I may well attack directly with the keshik this turn on the longbow, but cover him with these two axemen.
Sending in two axemen with anti-cavalry and anti archery promotions make sense. I think Axemen 5 and 8 does that. Daveshack, if this is the situation, I may well attack directly with the keshik this turn on the longbow, but cover him with these two axemen.
No need to sacrifice the axes. Just hit the city with a cat or two. The healthy cover mace, after a CR promotion, should have no trouble taking that LB. Then send in the Axemen to mop up the spears ...
Not sure what you mean.
I didn't realize I was spouting Soviet Doctrine. I am an advocate of simple and straight forward. This is, after all, the vanilla AI that we are discussing.But in the end, it is not my decision to make. Thus I will leave it in your capable hands and say no more. The city is toast, whether it be 1 turn, 4 turns, or 10 turns.
Provolution
Sage of Quatronia
More like 4 turns, I ran extensive tests on a City Defense Promotion 3 Longbow.
The elephant, the incoming longbow and unknown forces beyond complicates the situation, whether we like it or not.
Sorry for mentioning the Soviet thing, I did not want to stress you with that.
The thing is that we had an overt emphasis on a similar oversimplification in another demogame for Civ 3, there we came up with the term "Embryonism", meaning that the idea was barely hatched out of the egg.
Whenever I see a complex situation, I want to solve the problems more or less at once, in place of troubleshooting residue down the road.
The elephant, the incoming longbow and unknown forces beyond complicates the situation, whether we like it or not.
Sorry for mentioning the Soviet thing, I did not want to stress you with that.
The thing is that we had an overt emphasis on a similar oversimplification in another demogame for Civ 3, there we came up with the term "Embryonism", meaning that the idea was barely hatched out of the egg.
Whenever I see a complex situation, I want to solve the problems more or less at once, in place of troubleshooting residue down the road.
I think we should kill the longbow outside the city at once. Even the loss of our attacking unit to a counterattack is justified, since this loss would more than offset the losses we would take if Berlin had another defender. Other citizens feel the same way.
At this point I see no choice but to poll the decision, since it is clear that the Warlord is not interested in citizen involvement.
At this point I see no choice but to poll the decision, since it is clear that the Warlord is not interested in citizen involvement.
Provolution
Sage of Quatronia
I am interested in citizen involvement, in particular for units OUTSIDE Berlin, even if we are to take Berlin. I can agree on moving the keshik after the longbow, but only with a security screen if the Elephant or spearman counters.
This makes this a mini-stack we can live with on that foodplain.
This makes this a mini-stack we can live with on that foodplain.
Provolution
Sage of Quatronia
Daveshack, I do want citizen involvement, that is, handling of the longbow and the elephant, what I have been negative to - is the idle stack to sit on that hill.
For the counter on the longbow across the river, it will happen, maybe not to the tactical detail you prefer
So please do not call me "anti-citizen" , "anti-democrat" and all that negative crap, since I am the one that tried to poll civics, city names, new cities -what have you, where the majority of your citizens and democrats have been sitting idle or not promoting new polls.
For the counter on the longbow across the river, it will happen, maybe not to the tactical detail you prefer
So please do not call me "anti-citizen" , "anti-democrat" and all that negative crap, since I am the one that tried to poll civics, city names, new cities -what have you, where the majority of your citizens and democrats have been sitting idle or not promoting new polls.
If the longbow is not killed before EOT, experience tells us it will enter the city to make our attack more difficult. Parking a mini-stack on the floodplain tile won't make a bit of difference, because a lone unit won't suicide on a stack with such low odds of success when there is a high value move available like going to the city.
Do you definitely know it won't go into the city? Care to reveal how you know what will happen in this exact game situation?
In the poll thread, you agree that the longbow must be removed, but then say you will essentially ignore the results of the poll and proceed with the floodplain move anyway. Citizen involvement which falls on deaf ears is not involvement at all.
Do you definitely know it won't go into the city? Care to reveal how you know what will happen in this exact game situation?
In the poll thread, you agree that the longbow must be removed, but then say you will essentially ignore the results of the poll and proceed with the floodplain move anyway. Citizen involvement which falls on deaf ears is not involvement at all.
Provolution
Sage of Quatronia
Actually, I planned on taking the Keshik. I set up a parallell game, where I placed the same units and land structure, and the Longbow just went off the grid.
But steer your anger young man, I will send the Keshik as asked for, even though we suffer from the river defense. Yet, two axemen with anti-cavalry/anti-archery specialty will defend the surviving Keshik, or move to that tile with him.
You have the deaf ears (if we can write "ears" in a forum based environment) - or sight for that matter, as you are not too concerned about the counter. These high quality Keshiks with many promotions have high value to me and others in this country. I am not wasting troops for principle, the security screen will go with it.
But steer your anger young man, I will send the Keshik as asked for, even though we suffer from the river defense. Yet, two axemen with anti-cavalry/anti-archery specialty will defend the surviving Keshik, or move to that tile with him.
You have the deaf ears (if we can write "ears" in a forum based environment) - or sight for that matter, as you are not too concerned about the counter. These high quality Keshiks with many promotions have high value to me and others in this country. I am not wasting troops for principle, the security screen will go with it.
Young? I'm 45 but thanks for the compliment. 
This security screen you keep mentioning, is this the same as the move onto the flood plain? If so this is a good move to combine with the necessary attack on the longbowman. If these keshiks then draw an attack from the elephant or the spearmen the "security screen" would be able to take them out easily. I hope I've understood what you're trying to say correctly.
Provolution
Sage of Quatronia
This is exactly the plan as I laid it out, glad at least you have understood it.
Now it remains to let the others see it as well. We can ensnare the Königstramper in the same maneuver.
Now it remains to let the others see it as well. We can ensnare the Königstramper in the same maneuver.
It was never a problem to include other units in the manouver, at least for me. The question was "we're killing the longbow now, right?" and answer was "we're moving onto the floodplain". Now we see the answer is "we're killing the longbow and moving other units onto the floodplain", which is ok.
Provolution
Sage of Quatronia
Good you see that. You can also put in a chip for your revered people to respect their leaders as well, and try to understand the situation, not negating things for fun.
I don't think anyone here was trying to negate something for fun Provolution, a big aspect of this game is the process of decision making and you certainly weren't following it, when you refused to accept input by citizens (in fact all those who chose to post) or when you refused to answer questions about your plan.
I'm glad you finally changed your mind and have altered the plan so that it is acceptable to more people. I know this one will succeed much better than either my original idea of what we should do, or your original idea.
I'm glad you finally changed your mind and have altered the plan so that it is acceptable to more people. I know this one will succeed much better than either my original idea of what we should do, or your original idea.
Provolution
Sage of Quatronia
It was a hard fight against the singular stack crowd, who was bent on that lone stack to attack the very next turn, which polarized me as well. But good to see we developed some new consensus here. Now we will see how it works out.
