The Social Policies (Order)

[Nuukov]

Hey all.
I am looking forward to the new patch, but there is one thing I don't like, and that is the changes to Order. They just seem a little weird, and to be honest, a bit useless. Now I know that Order was very strong and needed a nerf, but not this much I thought.

So I went over them and thought of some changes that might be good. Now I know everybody wants their favourite thing to be the best so if any of these are too much, please tell me.


-Social Policies

-Order:
-Nationalism renamed to Secret Police.
-Socialism and Planned Economy retain their original place.
-Planned Economy; Citizen's produce 25% less unhappiness in a city where a Factory is present. (Or) Cities produce 50% less unhappiness which have a Factory.
-Communism; +2 Production in each city and Workers construct improvements faster.
-United Front; For each civilization you are allied with, you gain +3 Happiness. +1 from allied city states.


And one more thing aswell, just small...

-Autocracy:
-Populism renamed to Nationalism.


I would really like to hear everybody's opinion first. I am not sure how things will go, but I guess we will see.

So, opinions please!

EDIT: Fixed a massive typo!

 

[Strategist83]

I'd say Order is being buffed, not nerfed. I don't think you have anything to worry about with the coming update. The Order Finisher looks especially hefty, and with the hopefully healthy increase to the number of social policies you'll be adopting I suspect you'll be unlocking the full Order tree by the time you'd normally have reached Communism if you beeline for it (skipping Nationalism and United Front - I suspect many players do this against the AI, at least I do).

The patch is definitely focusing even Order into having if not fewer, then at least better developed cities, but once again I suspect this will only make Chairman players stronger than Order made them before.

Other than the changes being 'weird', what exactly are you afraid of?

 

[ColinTH]

I'd say Order is being buffed, not nerfed. I don't think you have anything to worry about with the coming update. The Order Finisher looks especially hefty, and with the hopefully healthy increase to the number of social policies you'll be adopting I suspect you'll be unlocking the full Order tree by the time you'd normally have reached Communism if you beeline for it (skipping Nationalism and United Front - I suspect many players do this against the AI, at least I do).

The patch is definitely focusing even Order into having if not fewer, then at least better developed cities, but once again I suspect this will only make Chairman players stronger than Order made them before.

Other than the changes being 'weird', what exactly are you afraid of?

Sorry, but could you really give up Freedom, and if so, what type of game are you playing? Not being critical, but just asking?

 

[Strategist83]

That has nothing to do with the topic, has it? He's wanting to discuss Order.

Also, in case you haven't noticed, the ridiculous Freedom opener just died. Thankfully and finally.

 

[Martin Alvito]

Also, in case you haven't noticed, the ridiculous Freedom opener just died. Thankfully and finally.

Only to be replaced by a Rationalism opener that is at least as ridiculously powerful, if not more so.

 

[aatami]

Also, the secret police are autocratic, not communist.

 

[Nuukov]

Also, the secret police are autocratic, not communist.

True, but they were in the Soviet Union. Sure it is not really what communism is all about but I thought that it was better than nationalism since nationalism is more fascist (at least I thought so).

@Strategist83 - Could you please explain your opinion on how Order is being buffed in a bit more detail please? Thanks

EDIT: Plus I think United Front needs not to be what it is being changed to. Sure it can be changed from what it is now, but all I smell is my gold income in the negative with this new United Front

 

[Nuukov]

*Bump

 

[AckAck]

I like keeping the concept of Nationalism in the order tree - that said, to give the SP the same flavour as the concept of Nationalism, its bonus could be changed to

-n happiness for puppet cities
+n happiness for all other non-occupied cities

That way, the dynamic of foreign and assimilated/native cultures can be preserved.

 

[Strategist83]

@Strategist83 - Could you please explain your opinion on how Order is being buffed in a bit more detail please? Thanks

I can possibly elaborate my analysis more, but I think you should first explain why you think it is being nerfed. You've only called the changes 'weird' - that's very vague.

 

[Strategist83]

Only to be replaced by a Rationalism opener that is at least as ridiculously powerful, if not more so.

It'll be interesting to see if you're right - it certainly is radical to place such a powerful policy as the opener. However, Rationalism means forsaking Piety, which will mean missing out on a lot of early culture, happiness and population.

What perhaps worries me more is the question of whether Piety and Rationalism are so powerful you'll practically always want to pick one of them. Commerce probably is the single weakest (and highly situational) policy tree - it is a shame if it continues to just get overlooked and players will prefer to dip into either Piety or Rationalism each time. I must say I am surprised to see Commerce being left nearly unchanged by this balance pass. Commerce, I believe, should be to US/Arabia/England/other gold focused civs what Piety is to ie. Persia. I just don't see that happening.

 

[Nuukov]

It'll be interesting to see if you're right - it certainly is radical to place such a powerful policy as the opener. However, Rationalism means forsaking Piety, which will mean missing out on a lot of early culture, happiness and population.

What perhaps worries me more is the question of whether Piety and Rationalism are so powerful you'll practically always want to pick one of them. Commerce probably is the single weakest (and highly situational) policy tree - it is a shame if it continues to just get overlooked and players will prefer to dip into either Piety or Rationalism each time. I must say I am surprised to see Commerce being left nearly unchanged by this balance pass. Commerce, I believe, should be to US/Arabia/England/other gold focused civs what Piety is to ie. Persia. I just don't see that happening.

I think I used bad wording and maybe should not have said 'weird' =P

But I just think that Order got a nerf in general. Like with the Happiness (planned economy) and just is on the whole weaker (like Communism giving +2 pro and +10% to buildings is very weak). And with Planned Economy I don't really get it, that 25% science is not going to do much, yes the 50% less unhappiness was very strong, but they could simply say that a city needs a factory for that effect to happen, not a silly science bonus.

Plus I dont just dont think it reflects what Order is supposed to be about (Communism etc).

I think it would be more accurate is the Communism policy made workers work faster (hence 'Workers of the world, unite!' ). And if planned economy is about making sure people have what they need, then I think in one way or another it it should help happiness.

Plus, with the new United Front, I can see my gold going down the crapper.


I don't know... I am used to RTS balance
But can I hear your side first, and why you think it is better, then maybe I will be able to see the light

 

[Randall Turner]

Plus I dont just dont think it reflects what Order is supposed to be about (Communism etc).

I think it would be more accurate is the Communism policy made workers work faster (hence 'Workers of the world, unite!' ). And if planned economy is about making sure people have what they need, then I think in one way or another it it should help happiness.

Dude, you can't make "real life" arguments for how Communism should work in-game. It's purely a game construct, just something to throw in for modern era social policies.

The Civilopedia notes on Communism, Planned Economy and the like orignally read like some high school kid wrote them without making a trip to the school library. They recently re-wrote the comments, pointing out the "laughable inefficiency" of planned economy etc, but they didn't change the bonuses.

In real life, Communism doesn't make workers work faster, nor is planned economy about making sure people have what they need. The whole reason China is going to little free-enterprise enclaves is to boost production, and consumer goods aren't a high priority for planned economies, it's all about heavy industry and "moar tanks". (No need to waste effort on frills like "food", let alone cars.)

You've got the Police State thing right, though. <shrug>

 

[Nuukov]

Dude, you can't make "real life" arguments for how Communism should work in-game. It's purely a game construct, just something to throw in for modern era social policies.

The Civilopedia notes on Communism, Planned Economy and the like orignally read like some high school kid wrote them without making a trip to the school library. They recently re-wrote the comments, pointing out the "laughable inefficiency" of planned economy etc, but they didn't change the bonuses.

In real life, Communism doesn't make workers work faster, nor is planned economy about making sure people have what they need. The whole reason China is going to little free-enterprise enclaves is to boost production, and consumer goods aren't a high priority for planned economies, it's all about heavy industry and "moar tanks". (No need to waste effort on frills like "food", let alone cars.)

You've got the Police State thing right, though. <shrug>

Heh, yeah I guess.

But what I do know is that Communism is for workers, or at least in favour of (in general), and that I thought it fitting for it to effect workers (in one way or another).

And with Planned Economy, it is about getting people what they need, at least to some extent, and the rest is so money can go to better use, than into one man's pocket. So I thought happiness could tie in here, but I guess I can see why they are putting in the science bonus, but in my opinion it just does not cover it.

But also you're right on one thing, the game does not reflect real life, because if it did, picking the likes of Autocracy or Order, would screw you =P
It's more about what it should be, not what it was.

 

[Nyanko]

I actually think the choice between Freedom and Order is quite a good one, you both give up something nice in order to have the other. Where I think the discussion should truly be, is how to bring Autocracy up to a place where you can make a choice between it, Freedom and Order. Noone in their right mind will give up ether of those two for Autocracy... maybe a policy in there which reduces the amount that your culture goes up for each city you Annex, to make annexing cities more attractive.

 

[Nuukov]

I actually think the choice between Freedom and Order is quite a good one, you both give up something nice in order to have the other. Where I think the discussion should truly be, is how to bring Autocracy up to a place where you can make a choice between it, Freedom and Order. Noone in their right mind will give up ether of those two for Autocracy... maybe a policy in there which reduces the amount that your culture goes up for each city you Annex, to make annexing cities more attractive.

This would be very nice!

Although my heart belongs to Order, I still like the other trees.

I do not really mind some of the changes to Order; there are thigns I like, but also things I don't like:

Things I like:

• Planned Econony needing a factory; this is a nice rebalance, and I think it fits well.
• Communism hammer reduction; +5 hammers was too much, so it is a nice rebalance.

Now the things I don't like:

• Planned Economy giving a measly +25% science bonus; this could be useful since the cost of technology goes up towards the end, but it still just does not cut it with me (but it might be good, I will just have to see; but as I said I did like the needing a factory, it's just the bonus it gives that I don't like).
• Communism giving +10% construction to building; I don't really like this since I will have a lot of the buildings by the time I have Communism; personally I think if it did something to effect workers (plus the +2 production), it would fit better.
• United Front making my economy go into the crapper. I just think this is a bit too much, since I will have no money left because I will have so much maintence cost. I'm not sure what would go well with United Front. The old trait was ok, but we have that in Patronage now, so I would not mind something new, just not double units from city states.
• Nationalism; now I know that there is no change to this, just this seems to be more of an autocratic thing, even just a name change to somethign more fitting would be good for me. Maybe change it to something like 'Order 227'

This is just my opinion. Maybe it will be good in the next patch, maybe it will work and will be efficient and balanced. All I want is balance, I don't want my favourite to be the most powerful, cos I <3 balance.

 

[Strategist83]

ButI just think that Order got a nerf in general.

Yeah, It seems to me you're just having a 'feeling' with nothing to back it up. But OK.

Like with the Happiness (planned economy) and just is on the whole weaker (like Communism giving +2 pro and +10% to buildings is very weak).

The new Communism, like the new Order in general, favors large, developed cities (but not as developed as 'Freedom' democratic cities!) much more than it currently does. They're shifting it from being about simply 'having as many cities as possible' to being about what we 'traditionally' think about with communism - something about large, polluting factories cranking out a gigantic army of quantity-over-quality units, for instance. They're USSR-ifying Order with his patch - you know, that cold war era empire which would be able to send 100,000 tanks at Berlin at an instant? That sort of thing. 'Order' has certainly gotten more militaristic with the new patch. But don't worry, that 'large, sprawling empires' trait certainly isn't gone. However, the focus has perhaps been shifted a bit from being about many cities that you founded yourself to being a bit more about the many cities that you acquired through conquest. Again, a USSR-ification, if you take my meaning. There's not much true 'communist paradise' about the new Order - it is the gruesome USSR/Mao one-party state dictatorships that are being portrayed.

So, for extremely small cities that were just founded, yes, the new Communism is nerfed. For your size 10+ cities, however, that +10% boost can be worth more than +3 to base production. I will agree with you this is a slight nerf in itself but when you get to pick up the incredible Order Finisher right afterwards it is actually more powerful than before - in this sense Communism is 1food/3production+10%/1science/1commerce/1culture in new patch, which is clearly more powerful than previously.

And with Planned Economy I don't really get it, that 25% science is not going to do much, yes the 50% less unhappiness was very strong, but they could simply say that a city needs a factory for that effect to happen, not a silly science bonus.

Did you just call an 'empire-wide' (a good commie will spam factories everywhere) 25% science bonus insignificant?

Also, I think you missed out on something quite important: The Order 'opener' now gives the +1 happy per city bonus! So, you get this valuable bonus immediately when going commie now instead of having to wait a few policies like previously. How can you be unhappy about that?

Plus I dont just dont think it reflects what Order is supposed to be about (Communism etc).

This I've already adressed I think. I think if anything, the the Order is much more about what communism is about than the previous one was. What one might criticize about it is they're clearly going with the IRL-version that 'communism fails', ie. the communist policies of the game are those of Stalin/Mao's communism, not utopian 'everybody's equal' societies as depicted by Marx and Lenin. So, a clear political comment there.

I think it would be more accurate is the Communism policy made workers work faster (hence 'Workers of the world, unite!' ). And if planned economy is about making sure people have what they need, then I think in one way or another it it should help happiness.

You're already getting your happiness boost (I assume you simply overlooked it) and much more. I do agree with you that a worker boost bonus would make sense for Order, but since it's already placed in Liberty (where it makes better yet sense) I think it's fine it is how it is.

Plus, with the new United Front, I can see my gold going down the crapper.

That's because you are a bad communist and are playing against a far too easy AI. Real commies are poor and are proud of their glorious giant army of the Motherland. They also don't face opponents that are so easy to defeat they actually want to keep their army size down to save on maintenance - and least of all at war time! On multiplayer where things aren't such a cakewalk you're going to want all the units you can possibly get. The new United Front and the stream of units it will offer you helps you build that 100,000 tank army to roll over those damn nazis in Berlin.

No pity for your whining about unit maintenance there, you just have it too easy.

 

[Nuukov]

Yeah, It seems to me you're just having a 'feeling' with nothing to back it up. But OK.

Like with the Happiness (planned economy) and just is on the whole weaker (like Communism giving +2 pro and +10% to buildings is very weak).

The new Communism, like the new Order in general, favors large, developed cities (but not as developed as 'Freedom' democratic cities!) much more than it currently does. They're shifting it from being about simply 'having as many cities as possible' to being about what we 'traditionally' think about with communism - something about large, polluting factories cranking out a gigantic army of quantity-over-quality units, for instance. They're USSR-ifying Order with his patch - you know, that cold war era empire which would be able to send 100,000 tanks at Berlin at an instant? That sort of thing. 'Order' has certainly gotten more militaristic with the new patch. But don't worry, that 'large, sprawling empires' trait certainly isn't gone. However, the focus has perhaps been shifted a bit from being about many cities that you founded yourself to being a bit more about the many cities that you acquired through conquest. Again, a USSR-ification, if you take my meaning. There's not much true 'communist paradise' about the new Order - it is the gruesome USSR/Mao one-party state dictatorships that are being portrayed.

So, for extremely small cities that were just founded, yes, the new Communism is nerfed. For your size 10+ cities, however, that +10% boost can be worth more than +3 to base production. I will agree with you this is a slight nerf in itself but when you get to pick up the incredible Order Finisher right afterwards it is actually more powerful than before - in this sense Communism is 1food/3production+10%/1science/1commerce/1culture in new patch, which is clearly more powerful than previously.

And with Planned Economy I don't really get it, that 25% science is not going to do much, yes the 50% less unhappiness was very strong, but they could simply say that a city needs a factory for that effect to happen, not a silly science bonus.

Did you just call an 'empire-wide' (a good commie will spam factories everywhere) 25% science bonus insignificant?

Also, I think you missed out on something quite important: The Order 'opener' now gives the +1 happy per city bonus! So, you get this valuable bonus immediately when going commie now instead of having to wait a few policies like previously. How can you be unhappy about that?

Plus I dont just dont think it reflects what Order is supposed to be about (Communism etc).

This I've already adressed I think. I think if anything, the the Order is much more about what communism is about than the previous one was. What one might criticize about it is they're clearly going with the IRL-version that 'communism fails', ie. the communist policies of the game are those of Stalin/Mao's communism, not utopian 'everybody's equal' societies as depicted by Marx and Lenin. So, a clear political comment there.

I think it would be more accurate is the Communism policy made workers work faster (hence 'Workers of the world, unite!' ). And if planned economy is about making sure people have what they need, then I think in one way or another it it should help happiness.

You're already getting your happiness boost (I assume you simply overlooked it) and much more. I do agree with you that a worker boost bonus would make sense for Order, but since it's already placed in Liberty (where it makes better yet sense) I think it's fine it is how it is.

Plus, with the new United Front, I can see my gold going down the crapper.

That's because you are a bad communist and are playing against a far too easy AI. Real commies are poor and are proud of their glorious giant army of the Motherland. They also don't face opponents that are so easy to defeat they actually want to keep their army size down to save on maintenance - and least of all at war time! On multiplayer where things aren't such a cakewalk you're going to want all the units you can possibly get. The new United Front and the stream of units it will offer you helps you build that 100,000 tank army to roll over those damn nazis in Berlin.

No pity for your whining about unit maintenance there, you just have it too easy.

Heh, thanks. I think you have helped me to see the light:

'Through storms the sun of freedom has shined upon us,
And the great Lenin Strategist83 has lighted the way'



But yeah thanks. I was just unsure really whether I liked the changes or not. So I just wanted t see other people's opinions to see whether they were good changes, so I posted what I personally did not like, and to see how people resonded. Sorry that this sounds very cold and scientific that I 'harvested' your opinions, it was just so I could make my mind up, because I was not sure 100% if I liked all the changes. Now it seems not so bad.

But one thing, with the new Order opener, the +1 happiness. In the change log also it mentions that unhappiness produced by cities will be 3, not 2. The +1 happiness is still good because then it negates that, but it will be just like what it is now.

Plus I still wish they would change 'Nationalism' to 'Order 227'. No big reason, I just feel it makes more sense, more, as you say... USSRish

But otherwise, thank you for sharing that. I appreciate the time and effort put into your post, also made me chuckle here and there

'100,000 tanks... muhahahahaha... we shall raise our glorius red banner over the Reichstag by the end of the month!'

 

[_hero_]

Sorry, but could you really give up Freedom, and if so, what type of game are you playing? Not being critical, but just asking?

Freedom is entirely skip-able now. If you're not in a position to crank out Great People, freedom is now basically useless, however if you are cranking out great people it is better then before.

In other words if you are doing an empire of low pop puppets or annex and crank troops, there's no reason to go freedom.

 

[fat_tonle]

Reading through these threads and similar threads, and maybe it is just me, but I like ultra realism in my civ games. Not in the expense of game play that is turd worthy, but reviewing the policies, it is kinda weird that your civ can have Tradition with Aristocracy and Monarchy bonuses active at the same time as Freedom or Order branches. Doesn't make sense.

I think that Order/Freedom should cancel tradition. Autocracy should cancel Liberty, just so that all three Industrial branches cancel out an ancient one. Keep the three mutually exclusive like they have done of course.