The Stable

[lilnev]

I avoid HBR unless I've got Ivory. It's just too expensive for a dead-end tech. On the rare occasions that I do get it (popped from a hut or traded for, or sometimes if I have no metal), I find HAs and stables to be fine. So I would rather see the beaker cost reduced rather than stables buffed.

peace,
lilnev

 

[bardolph]

Horse Archers are incredibly useful, as are Stables. If I have access to Horses, I find it totally worthwhile to research HBR.

First, Horse Archers are extremely good barbarian busters, since their movement allows them to respond quickly to threats.

Second, Horse Archers can move with an invading stack and pillage every tile along the way. Combining HA with Swordsmen and/or Axemen is incredibly effective.

Third, a Horse Archer who leaves a stack to kill an enemy unit or capture an enemy worker can use its remaining movement to return to the protection of the stack.

Fourth, HA has 2 more strength than Chariot.

Fifth, a HA produced from a Barracks and Stable gets 2 promotions out the gate, without using Vassalage or Theocracy.

What's not to like?

 

[ShunNakamura]

First, Horse Archers are extremely good barbarian busters, since their movement allows them to respond quickly to threats.

This is true, but the same thing that blocks Chariots also blocks the Horse Archers[namely when Barbarian swords/spears come online]. Chariots take down axes, archers, warriors just fine. Thus the only real advantage comes when the barb swords/spears are loose... and Horse Archers are not what I really like to send after barbarian Swords/spears. So you really don't need Horse Archers for barb defense[they are a good unit mind you] if you have chariots for barb defense.

Second, Horse Archers can move with an invading stack and pillage every tile along the way. Combining HA with Swordsmen and/or Axemen is incredibly effective.

Pillaging with a stack of Swords and Axes is only partially useful. This is because if you have swords and axes that city[and hence the improvements] will be yours shortly. So all you do is add to your workers work load. The exception is important stargetic resources... cutting off metal, etc. However, for a annoyance stack of pure Horse archers just to slow down your highest tech rival they are useful for pillaging.

Third, a Horse Archer who leaves a stack to kill an enemy unit or capture an enemy worker can use its remaining movement to return to the protection of the stack.

This is handy, but Chariots do this just about as effectively.

Fourth, HA has 2 more strength than Chariot.

Useful yes... they still get blocked by the same units that chariots do.. so all this does is make them capable of attacking cities better and attacking without taking a break[chariots will have to heal more often]. Definately a good plus over the chariot... but mounted units don't play a key role in the games warfare model.


Basically the point is the expensive cost of Horseback Riding is high enough that a niche unit and free xp to give this niche unit 1 more promotion isn't worth the research cost most of the time. Worse is the fact that the chariot can handle most of the Horse Archer's duties until later in the game. Truthfully the first real reason for HBR is so that you can utilize elephants when you have ivory. Elephants are quite nice and at that point the cost of HBR relatively to other techs that you are looking at isn't bad at all. I would just like to see HBR being more valuable before that period[since the tech is so early in the tree you would hope it would have an early use].

However, I did overlook the reducing the cost of the tech.... but I still think it makes sense for stables to get some sort of non-military boost.

 

[Astax]

All I have to say is u guys obviously never play against another player. The 2 XP makes all the difference before feudalism. Shock promoted Horse Archers will destroy preatorian stacks after they been hit by catapult, they will take cities with spears in them. They are a must have for any kind of flank attack. And I won't eveng o into the benefit of elephants with 2 promotions.

 

[ShunNakamura]

In the cat vs. Praet example why waste the research going into HBR. You can use shock or even combat 1 axes to the same effect. And axes wouldn't have that annoying weakness to spears.


As for elephants... yup elephants are very useful if you have ivory, I doubt you'll have many saying otherwise.

 

[Diamondeye]

This is true, but the same thing that blocks Chariots also blocks the Horse Archers[namely when Barbarian swords/spears come online]. Chariots take down axes, archers, warriors just fine. Thus the only real advantage comes when the barb swords/spears are loose... and Horse Archers are not what I really like to send after barbarian Swords/spears. So you really don't need Horse Archers for barb defense[they are a good unit mind you] if you have chariots for barb defense.

Not true. Shock chariots die to swords. Shock HAs, on the other hand, kill swords. Also, you can get the shock chariots out of the box only with stable or a much later civic. the only bonii chariots have over horsearchers are against axemen, when defending hills+forest, and requiring a tech less.

Pillaging with a stack of Swords and Axes is only partially useful. This is because if you have swords and axes that city[and hence the improvements] will be yours shortly. So all you do is add to your workers work load. The exception is important stargetic resources... cutting off metal, etc. However, for a annoyance stack of pure Horse archers just to slow down your highest tech rival they are useful for pillaging.

True. But horsearchers can be good to bring along as anti-drill units (ignoring firststrikes). If you aren't moving on defensive terrain, the horsearchers can pillage cottages for money - if you, for some reason, want another improvement than the AI.

This is handy, but Chariots do this just about as effectively.

Yes, but Horsearchers have 50% more base strength (thus their combat promos help them more aswell), and ignores firststrikes.

Useful yes... they still get blocked by the same units that chariots do.. so all this does is make them capable of attacking cities better and attacking without taking a break[chariots will have to heal more often]. Definately a good plus over the chariot... but mounted units don't play a key role in the games warfare model.

It's true that early mounted units are not the center of every war. But they can be crucial in some - HArush can prove very effective - especially, of course, as mongols. I have just finished a game with Genghis against 4 opponents (1520 AD domination). The first two, one of them being Sumeria (Cre/pro, the hardest nutshell to break), went down to my Keshiks purely. And mind you, Keshik doesn't have more strength than HAs, just better movement rate. And lategame, a stack of cuirassiers can be deadly. 12 strength, 2 moves and ignoring walls/castles...

Basically the point is the expensive cost of Horseback Riding is high enough that a niche unit and free xp to give this niche unit 1 more promotion isn't worth the research cost most of the time. Worse is the fact that the chariot can handle most of the Horse Archer's duties until later in the game. Truthfully the first real reason for HBR is so that you can utilize elephants when you have ivory. Elephants are quite nice and at that point the cost of HBR relatively to other techs that you are looking at isn't bad at all. I would just like to see HBR being more valuable before that period[since the tech is so early in the tree you would hope it would have an early use].

Horsearchers might be niche units, but having Ivory is a rare luxury aswell. And warelephants aren't gamebreakers. Pikemen kill them off no problem.

However, I did overlook the reducing the cost of the tech.... but I still think it makes sense for stables to get some sort of non-military boost.

Might be room for a small buff, but nothing more. They are really good buildings. Adding them to the aggressive list of double speed buildings would be too large of a buff, imo. Maybe add +1 continental TR with horses, if that wouldn't be a too large buff. Anyway, IMO, adding hammers to provide another benefit breaks it's original use - a relatively fast building adding that missing xp for lvl 3 mounted units.

 

[bardolph]

This is true, but the same thing that blocks Chariots also blocks the Horse Archers[namely when Barbarian swords/spears come online]. Chariots take down axes, archers, warriors just fine. Thus the only real advantage comes when the barb swords/spears are loose... and Horse Archers are not what I really like to send after barbarian Swords/spears. So you really don't need Horse Archers for barb defense[they are a good unit mind you] if you have chariots for barb defense.

Hmm... there's a big difference between 4 and 6 when facing spears and swords. While I admit that spears have the edge against HA's, the edge isn't all that great after you factor in the extra promotion from the stable, and HAs definitely have the edge against swords, especially barbarian swords.

Not to mention the fact that HA's outperform even axes when it comes to taking archer-defended cities.

Pillaging with a stack of Swords and Axes is only partially useful. This is because if you have swords and axes that city[and hence the improvements] will be yours shortly. So all you do is add to your workers work load. The exception is important stargetic resources... cutting off metal, etc. However, for a annoyance stack of pure Horse archers just to slow down your highest tech rival they are useful for pillaging.

Stack of Doom is not the only viable wartime strategy. Besides, what do you do with your stack while it's healing? With horses, you can go pillaging. Even with a stack of doom, there is a limit to how much land you can conquer in a single war. If you plan ahead, you can pillage the land that you know you won't be conquering this time around.

I know that pillaging isn't fashionable around CivFanatics, but it can be a very profitable wartime strategy, and can often yield as much gold as city conquest.

Useful yes... they still get blocked by the same units that chariots do.. so all this does is make them capable of attacking cities better and attacking without taking a break[chariots will have to heal more often]. Definately a good plus over the chariot... but mounted units don't play a key role in the games warfare model.

It's not true that HA's get blocked by the same units that chariots get blocked by. HA's have the edge against swords and axes, and fare reasonably well even against spears, once you factor in the Stable (Shock Promotion, anyone?) Plus, the extra movement allows them to reach the front much more quickly than 1 move units.

If Stack of Doom is your ONLY configuration during wartime, then I agree that HA's don't add much to the SoD strategy, since you're wasting the extra move. But there ARE other configurations.

Basically the point is the expensive cost of Horseback Riding is high enough that a niche unit and free xp to give this niche unit 1 more promotion isn't worth the research cost most of the time. Worse is the fact that the chariot can handle most of the Horse Archer's duties until later in the game. Truthfully the first real reason for HBR is so that you can utilize elephants when you have ivory. Elephants are quite nice and at that point the cost of HBR relatively to other techs that you are looking at isn't bad at all. I would just like to see HBR being more valuable before that period[since the tech is so early in the tree you would hope it would have an early use].

The benefit of Horse Archers is that you have a militarily viable unit with 2 move. Chariots, while having a 2 move, are not militarily viable. If I couldn't find a use for the extra movement point, then I would agree with you. However, I DO find that movement coming in handy in most of my games.

 

[ShunNakamura]

It's not true that HA's get blocked by the same units that chariots get blocked by. HA's have the edge against swords and axes, and fare reasonably well even against spears, once you factor in the Stable

I just a did a World Builder test and more or less mister HA is blocked by swords[only exception being on open plains... and even then the percent is less than is somewhat under my comfort zone, so I would still likely throw an axe at it; however, I can count the number of times I have in all of my games gotten a barb swordsmen in the open on one hand... so that isn't often enough for me to say that HA isn't bocked by swords]. The only time I would HA valuable vs swords was if I had no metals at all. But if you don't have any metals or longbows out by the time barbarians have swords then you are likely boned anyways.

Axes are cheaper and thus easier replaced should they fall; add in the fact that they fare better means that I am very unlikely to use HA against swords. HA fare less effective against axes than chariots do[that +100% is very significant]. So only against The Greek axes would I ever need HA to deal with axes. And spears take both down so once again that is the Axes job to stop.



As for a pure HA war... I would just say you should read some of my posts I love the Keshik. However, Horse archers are not a good unit to pay 535 beakers for... that is even more than what iron working costs[which gives swords[cheaper than HA and better city killers], jungle chopping, and reveals iron... all of which are more valuable in most cases than what HBR gives]. You could also use that same research to gain Mathematics[same cost as HBR] which increases your health cap, enhances chopping, and opens up construction[which is the very nice elephant]. Or any number of things. HA and Stables aren't worth that heavy of a cost till later in the game[unless you know you can take an enemy with an HA rush... Mongols being one of the better suited for this, though I guess the Numidian Cavalry unit also would work to some extent].

 

[Diamondeye]

Just trying sumthing:

Axeman with Combat I vs Sword:
5 x 1,6 = 8
Horsearcher with Combat I, Shock vs. Sword:
6 x 1,35 = 8,1.
Tell me again axes are better against swords. And mind you, the bonus against barbarians is also %-based, meaning HAs will have 20% more effect from it.

And Horsearchers fare 6v8 vs chariots 8v8 - if that's signifant to you, then the HA's chance against the swordsman should be aswell, they're about the same.

And I don't find swords better city killers than Horsearchers. CII HA has only 0,6 strength less tahn CRI Sword, but ignores firststrikes and have 2 moves.
But, agreed, if you have no need for speed and have got metals, ignore HA until elephants or an AI will trade it for something inferior.

 

[bardolph]

Yesm but swords can get CR or cover, something which horse archers simply can't.

And Horse Archers can get Flank, Mobility, and Sentry. What's your point?

 

[bardolph]

None of these promotions are as good for talking cities as CR and cover, which is why swordsmen are better. An offensive military campaign should have as its objective capturing cities, everything else is just a waste of time.

- Waiting outside of a city for siege to reduce defenses is also a waste of time.
- Waiting around for damaged units to heal is also a waste of time.

Units with a move of 2 can maneuver and pillage during these waiting periods, and if healing, can reach the front in half the time as foot soldiers. Also, because of the Stable, they are 2 XP closer to the key March promotion.

I find that I fight many battles on the open field, and Combat II Horses are terrific for this purpose.

Besides, there are reasons to wage an offensive military campaign to raze cities as well, and if you're going to raze, you might as well pillage, too.

 

[bardolph]

Attacking a city without first reducing its defences is nothing short of madness. No matter which units you're attacking with.

I agree, but your stack can be idle during this time, or useful.

But sending cavalry on its own, without escort, is suicide. A few spearmen will decimate your stack. Therefore, the only use of 2 moves is a) to get to the front line quickly and b) to move and pillage. But if your dividing your army into small stacks to pillage then your going to want a spear and an axe (more likely 2-3) in each stack for defence and might as well use a chariot instead of a HA to do the pillaging and save some hammers.

This depends on the quality of your intelligence. If you have good intel, you can usually predict how close enemy spears are to your pillagers, and move away if your horses are in danger.

I have also found that HA + Axe makes a fine pillaging stack, since the Axe protects against enemy spears. If your pillagers draw the enemy outside of their cities, then you can take the battle to the open field, which is a lot more cost effective than laying siege to cities.

The difference between HA and Chariot is that an HA can survive combat, while a Chariot cannot. I like having the option to fight if I need to. Also, you're exaggerating the advantage spearmen have over Horse Archers. C1 Spearman vs Shock HA = 7:6. I wouldn't call that "decimation" by any means.

Really? Be it in MP or SP I only ever fight in the field when I want to destroy an enemy stack before its pillaged my precious towns. When I attack, my target tends to turtle inside its cities.

Think about it. If you're the one pillaging the precious towns, wouldn't your opponent be motivated to crawl out of his shell? I've found that if I have overwhelming force, the AI tends to turtle, but if my force isn't overwhelming, they are much more willing to fight in the open field, and I can use tactics to win the battle. I'm hyper-aggressive, so I end up fighting a lot of wars where I don't necessarily have an overwhelming advantage in numbers. Often, it's because of pillaging that I end up pulling ahead and winning the war.

 

[MrFrodo]

I agree the stables needs an upgrade.

Horse Archer is OK in a very warlike game, but even then it typically isn't worth taking this tech that doesn't help you beeline to more useful things down the road.

Builders certainly wont take it for Horse Archer or Stables.

So what would make Stables worth taking for both war and building and makes some sense?

Horse/Oxen drawn ploughs were a big advancement, so food does actually make sense to me. That would be an early growth boost not tied to worker production which could be handy for the whip, or GP farm, or Specialist economy.

The other thought is production, , since Horses assisted in building projects, and mules/donkeys were used to turn gears, etc. Plus, they themselves provide materials. Speeding horse-based military production makes sense too, although that wont appeal to builders.

So ya, along with castles, stables are a prime candidate for a buff.

 

[ytswy]

One thing I've not seen mentioned here very much is flanking and the ability to do collateral damage to siege units. Barracks + Stable give you Flanking 2 out of the box, which is approx 50% withdraw chance; hence 50% chance to do collateral damage (and survive) to an enemy's siege engines when they move a big stack towards you.

I don't really understand the mechanics too well - how much does being damaged actually ****** a siege engine in terms of the collateral damage it inflicts itself?

Do chariots cause collateral damage on siege engines? I've never tried - civilopedia seems to suggest not but I don't know.

When I've tried it with HA the results seem to be impressive in terms of damage to siege engines in a big stack, but I'm unsure how much real benefit I'm getting.

If the effect is potent (and not available to chariots), I'd lean towards the idea that HBR, HA and stables are probably ok as they are, but I don't really know enough about it.

 

[ShunNakamura]

Just trying sumthing:

Axeman with Combat I vs Sword:
5 x 1,6 = 8
Horsearcher with Combat I, Shock vs. Sword:
6 x 1,35 = 8,1.
Tell me again axes are better against swords. And mind you, the bonus against barbarians is also %-based, meaning HAs will have 20% more effect from it.

First with the axeman. .1 combat difference when you are siding the promos in favor of the horse archer isn't bad at all. For two main reasons. First of all HA cost significantly more than Axes. And secondly you need to invest in the stable to do this as well. Also you need to burn 535 beakers that would be quite handy elsewhere. Thus I can have the axes coming cheaper and out of more cities than I can with the HA plus I can pick up almost an entirely different tech that is further along the tech tree and one that doesn't dead end. They fare just as well[or near enough] and are much more easily replaced. In addition by the time Barbarian Swords come online I no longer usually need the response time of the Horse Archer.

I am not sure what you are talking about with the 6v8 8v8. However, a C1 Shock promoted Chariot has a 99.2% chance vs an axe in the open whereas the HA with the same promotions has a ?96.6%?[somewhere in the 96 range] chance against the same axe. I don't think that difference is significant... however, what is significant is the 100% vs Axes... this is what makes the Chariots still stronger[though not by much] vs axes than the HA.

If you were talking about spears... it doesn't really matter since I won't send either one against spears unless I am desperate anyways. Basically while I may think a 10% difference is nice at an original 80% odds.. I don't give a darn about the difference if either one is not above 66'ish%[I won't attack otherwise unless I am desperate or attacking a fortified city[mainly cause you don't get good odds either way when attacking a city very often... unless you suicide a LOT of cats]].

 

[bardolph]

First with the axeman. .1 combat difference when you are siding the promos in favor of the horse archer isn't bad at all. For two main reasons. First of all HA cost significantly more than Axes. And secondly you need to invest in the stable to do this as well.

Yes, but if you're comparing Axes to Horse Archers, you are not fighting only swordsmen. You are also dealing with Axemen, Archers, Chariots, Spearmen, and other Horse Archers. Overall, the HA outperforms the Axeman on almost every matchup (Spearmen of course excepted). And don't forget the extra movement point.

So, yes, Horse Archers are more expensive than Axemen. But they also have a lot more uses.

Also you need to burn 535 beakers that would be quite handy elsewhere. Thus I can have the axes coming cheaper and out of more cities than I can with the HA plus I can pick up almost an entirely different tech that is further along the tech tree and one that doesn't dead end.

They fare just as well[or near enough] and are much more easily replaced. In addition by the time Barbarian Swords come online I no longer usually need the response time of the Horse Archer.

This is all very true, but I'm not sure why you don't need the response time of the HA. Are your Axes getting some kind of movement bonus that I'm not aware of?

I am not sure what you are talking about with the 6v8 8v8. However, a C1 Shock promoted Chariot has a 99.2% chance vs an axe in the open whereas the HA with the same promotions has a ?96.6%?[somewhere in the 96 range] chance against the same axe. I don't think that difference is significant... however, what is significant is the 100% vs Axes... this is what makes the Chariots still stronger[though not by much] vs axes than the HA.

Also note that the Chariot bonus only applies when attacking Axemen. If there are two Axes, for example, then the survivor can easily mop up the wounded Chariot.

If you were talking about spears... it doesn't really matter since I won't send either one against spears unless I am desperate anyways.

Of course, but what happens when they send spears against you? Horse Archers have a much better survival rate than Chariots, by a long shot.

Chariots have value because of their movement, and as a limited counter to Axemen, but when compared to Horse Archers, they really don't measure up.

 

[ShunNakamura]

What if the barb spear comes after me? Well that is what the axe is for. What if an barb axe is there... the chariot takes it. If there are two axes... well that is what the extra chariot is for. That or you use your one movement point to attack and then use your remaining moves to move away one square[not usually applicable for me though]. As for dealing with Chariots... I have never even seen a barbarian chariot spawn. However, I guess I would have to make sure I attack it[since the bonus is only on attack] or risk it with a chariot vs chariot battle[not too bad since my chariot will likely have CII if any sort of time has passed since I made it].

I don't need the extra moves, because by the time the barbs have swords I usually have two things. 1 road spamage. 2 a sizable enough army that I can have 2axes for each BFC[or more likely an axe and a chariot, plus other units if I have both resources]. By 1000 BC I usually have quite large standing military for defense which can easily guard my whole territory without needing the extra move.... this is mainly to keep people like Shaka from declaring on me. It also serves to end the barbarian threat though.