The Trinity.

[Yom]

Can our local religious members and biblical scholars (Plotinus) explain the concept of the trinity? How is God's nature as a father (creator), son (Jesus), and Holy Ghost/Spirit (I have no idea what this really means) one in the same, yet separate? When one acts, would it imply that all others are acting as well? Is the Holy Spirit what is common between the Father and Son (divinity), while the latter two are just the two roles played? Does the concept of the trinity imply that God has multiple beings, or that God exists in multiple places at once, or both?

The whole subject is confusing and irrational to me.

 

[Birdjaguar]

the trinity has been controversial for 1900 years. Plotinus is our resident expert on all the changes in church thinking about it. IIRC one aspect of the split between Rome and Constantinople was over the nature of the trinity.

 

[Quasar1011]

1900 years? Tell that to Abraham, that time the Father, Son and Holy Spirit visited him.

 

[Quasar1011]

How is God's nature as a father (creator), son (Jesus), and Holy Ghost/Spirit (I have no idea what this really means) one in the same, yet separate?

God's nature is divine. There are beings with angelic natures, and then's there's man with human nature. But only God has a Divine nature. The Divine nature is perfect.

When one acts, would it imply that all others are acting as well? Is the Holy Spirit what is common between the Father and Son (divinity), while the latter two are just the two roles played?

Not necessarily. While it is true that all members of the trinity are "in" each other, they each have certain tasks. For instance, the Father does not judge; He has given that task to the Son. The Son does not convict of sin; He has given that task to the Spirit.

The Holy Spirit is a person. He is just as much a part of the trinity as the Father and Son. The Holy Spirit is not some impersonal force. As a person, the Holy Spirit can be lied to, or grieved. He even speaks:

Acts 8.29: The Spirit told Philip, "Go to that chariot and stay near it."

Acts 10:19: "While Peter thought about the vision, the Spirit said to him, "Behold, three men are seeking you."

Does the concept of the trinity imply that God has multiple beings, or that God exists in multiple places at once, or both?

God is one being. Do the math: 1 x 1 x 1 = 1. I might add, that the Spirit Himself is sevenfold. God is just bigger and more mysterious than we can even imagine!

God not only exists in multiple places at once, He exists in all places at once! He even exists in all times at once!

 

[Perfection]

Do the math: 1 x 1 x 1 = 1. I might add

So why don't you...

Seriously, why is it multiply not add?

 

[Yom]

God's nature is divine. There are beings with angelic natures, and then's there's man with human nature. But only God has a Divine nature. The Divine nature is perfect.

That does not answer my question.

Not necessarily. While it is true that all members of the trinity are "in" each other, they each have certain tasks. For instance, the Father does not judge; He has given that task to the Son. The Son does not convict of sin; He has given that task to the Spirit.

So are the divisions arbitrary in that they are only used to separate the part of God that carries out a specific task (aside from the obvious separateness of the Son from the other two parts).

The Holy Spirit is a person. He is just as much a part of the trinity as the Father and Son. The Holy Spirit is not some impersonal force. As a person, the Holy Spirit can be lied to, or grieved. He even speaks:

Acts 8.29: The Spirit told Philip, "Go to that chariot and stay near it."

Acts 10:19: "While Peter thought about the vision, the Spirit said to him, "Behold, three men are seeking you."

What exactly is the Holy Spirit, then? Is there also a question over whether or not the Holy Spirit is or is not monophysite in nature, like the Son? What about such a debate over whether or not the Father is monophysite?

God is one being. Do the math: 1 x 1 x 1 = 1. I might add, that the Spirit Himself is sevenfold. God is just bigger and more mysterious than we can even imagine!

Yes, 1x1x1=1, but 7x7x7=343. Is God the coalition of three separate beings, then, who work together to create a greater being that is larger than the sum of its parts?

God not only exists in multiple places at once, He exists in all places at once! He even exists in all times at once!

I thought you would say something to this effect. If that is the case, then does that mean that at least one part of the holy trinity is in one place, or does that imply that there is each component of the holy trinity in every single place and time?

 

[Birdjaguar]

Keep in mind that the Trinity has changed over time in the teachings of the christian churches. For lack of a better word, it has evolved. I'm going to plagerize Plotinus here and condense some of his thinking. Plotinus, I take full responsibility for all the errors that may follow.

The modern doctrine of the Trinity did not emerge until Augustine around 400 AD. Persons = Father, son and spirit
Augustine (in a nut shell):
The son is the son of the father alone
The spirit proceeds from the father and the son
No one of the three is identified wth divinity itself
Divinity is distinct from each of the persons
Each of the divine person shares in the divine nature
No one person is greater than the others
They are all god and of infiniteness greatness
No two taken together are greater the other one.
The son is eternally generated from the father
The spirit eternallly proceeds from the other two.

Edit:Augustine has removed all traces of the belief that the father is greater than the other two persons. The persons are all equal and take their divinity fromthe same source: the godhead itself, which is not identical to anyone of them.

 

[Elrohir]

Ok, first off, this is God we're talking about. You're never going to fully understand everything, or even most things about him, no matter how long you live.

That said, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are three parts of the same thing. A good example is an apple: There's the skin, the meat and the core. Is any one part really more of an apple than the others? No, when you think of an apple you might think primarily of the meat, but the meat is only part of the apple. Each part is distinctly different from the others - yet part of the same being.

That's my take on it anyway.

 

[Birdjaguar]

That said, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are three parts of the same thing. A good example is an apple: There's the skin, the meat and the core. Is any one part really more of an apple than the others? No, when you think of an apple you might think primarily of the meat, but the meat is only part of the apple. Each part is distinctly different from the others - yet part of the same being. That's my take on it anyway.

Augustine uses love as an image of the trinity. Three things are always involved: the person, the thing person loves and love itself. They come packaged together. The three persons of the trinity are similar to this.

 

[Dida]

Trinity was needed to make Jesus god, otherwise he will just be a powerful human like Moses. They say it is like a coin. It is 1 coin, but can have multiple sides, head and tail for example.
But that hardly make sense. 1 is one, 3 is three, 1 is not equal to 3, and 3 is not equal to 1. In the OT, god said he is the lord god, and there is no other, and commands the people of Moses to worship him along. Christians obviously committed crime against god.

 

[anarchywrksbest]

God is God, Jesus is God and the Holy Spirit is the uh... *cough* of the *ahem*.

Simple really.

 

[Winner]

Ok, first off, this is God we're talking about. You're never going to fully understand everything, or even most things about him, no matter how long you live.

That said, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are three parts of the same thing. A good example is an apple: There's the skin, the meat and the core. Is any one part really more of an apple than the others? No, when you think of an apple you might think primarily of the meat, but the meat is only part of the apple. Each part is distinctly different from the others - yet part of the same being.

That's my take on it anyway.

Wait a while. Son, the Jesus, was talking to the God and refering to him as a "father". So he was talking to himself? AFAIK the orthodox church denies that.

Anyway, as an atheist I think it's just another religious bullsh*t made for confusing the people...

 

[colontos]

Here's my contribution:
think of it this way. All of us here fulfill different roles in life. I, for example, am a teacher, a husband, and a Christian. I am always all 3, even if I am only acting in the role as one at a given time. Now, because this is God and I'm just a person, God can act in all three capacities simultaneously, while if I act as a teacher, say, my other roles are dormant at the time. When I'm a teacher, though, I'm still my other roles too, just not active. God's capabilites are superior to mine, and he can be active in as many simultaneous roles as he needs to.

 

[Gelion]

I forsee the division of CFC into "Western CFC Trinity Believers" and "Eastern CFC Trinity Believers" as it was with Christianity....

 

[Margim]

Can our local religious members and biblical scholars (Plotinus) explain the concept of the trinity? How is God's nature as a father (creator), son (Jesus), and Holy Ghost/Spirit (I have no idea what this really means) one in the same, yet separate? When one acts, would it imply that all others are acting as well? Is the Holy Spirit what is common between the Father and Son (divinity), while the latter two are just the two roles played? Does the concept of the trinity imply that God has multiple beings, or that God exists in multiple places at once, or both?

The whole subject is confusing and irrational to me.

The Trinity is not explicity refered to in the bible. Rather, it is implied through the fact that...

a) The bible follows believing in one God
b) Jesus is identified as God
c) Jesus identifies 'his father in heaven' as God
d) Jesus physically leaves earth, but God remains in the Holy Spirit.

When all four statements are considered true, we are left with an idea of three personas wrapped in one.

The personas can and do act independently of each other... Jesus asks of the Father's forgiveness for humanity, and leaves the spirit in his place to comfort humanity.

God seems to leave Jesus when he is on the cross.

Yet again, we believe that God was acting in unity - God does not disagree with God (or there would be no God left)

We might say that through the presence of at least one aspect, the whole trinity is present - each aspect serves a different function (ie creator, saviour and comforter/guide), but through the enacting of that function, the will and presence of God is made known and experienced. God is wherever one aspect of the trinity is experienced - in creation, in life, on the cross - and thus God is everywhere, all the time.

The concept of trinity is difficult - you might also say it is one of two fundamental doctrines of Christianity.
a) the belief in father/creator, son and spirit
b) the necessity of son for the saving of the world.

All christians believe on these two factors. Its when we talk about what they mean that fights break out

 

[CruddyLeper]

The whole subject is confusing and irrational to me.

Me too. And the prophet Muhammad. It was very comforting to a lot of people when he declared "there is no god but God".

Annoyed a lot of others who'd spent centuries arguing about it though.

 

[Yom]

Ok, first off, this is God we're talking about. You're never going to fully understand everything, or even most things about him, no matter how long you live.

That said, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are three parts of the same thing. A good example is an apple: There's the skin, the meat and the core. Is any one part really more of an apple than the others? No, when you think of an apple you might think primarily of the meat, but the meat is only part of the apple. Each part is distinctly different from the others - yet part of the same being.

That's my take on it anyway.

An apple is not a being, though. It is a fruit. Besides, you can identify one part of an apple as larger than the other, or more important in its functions, which I assume that you think does not apply to the trinity.

Here's my contribution:
think of it this way. All of us here fulfill different roles in life. I, for example, am a teacher, a husband, and a Christian. I am always all 3, even if I am only acting in the role as one at a given time. Now, because this is God and I'm just a person, God can act in all three capacities simultaneously, while if I act as a teacher, say, my other roles are dormant at the time. When I'm a teacher, though, I'm still my other roles too, just not active. God's capabilites are superior to mine, and he can be active in as many simultaneous roles as he needs to.

If that's the case, then what is the purpose of Jesus's prayers? Are they to God the Father, the Holy Spirit, God the Son, or all three? Such prayers would indicate a separateness and not the wholeness that exists in a person or God that has three occupations or roles.

 

[Margim]

If that's the case, then what is the purpose of Jesus's prayers? Are they to God the Father, the Holy Spirit, God the Son, or all three? Such prayers would indicate a separateness and not the wholeness that exists in a person or God that has three occupations or roles.

Jesus' prayers were to the Father. Look at the lord's prayer, where he spoke to 'our father in heaven'.

It is important to remember, I think, the uniqueness and specificity of Jesus time on earth, as opposed to the eternal state God exists in.

Jesus coming to earth naturally suspended the standard order of things -

It can't actually be explained in a nice little package. It can be accepted or rejected - it is a unique, one of a kind reality that we can paint metaphors for, but in reality will never be able to grasp (as you showed quite well in your questions regarding the apple analogy)

 

[Yom]

I forsee the division of CFC into "Western CFC Trinity Believers" and "Eastern CFC Trinity Believers" as it was with Christianity....

There aren't enough Christians on CFC for that.

The Trinity is not explicity refered to in the bible. Rather, it is implied through the fact that...

a) The bible follows believing in one God
b) Jesus is identified as God
c) Jesus identifies 'his father in heaven' as God
d) Jesus physically leaves earth, but God remains in the Holy Spirit.

Explain d), please. The first three make perfect sense (which would imply a duality, or perhaps the fact that Jesus is divine but not God), but the fourth makes absolutely no sense. What is the Holy Spirit, and which God remains in it? When you say "God," please either say "God the Son," "God the Father," "the Holy Spirit," or "God the whole" (or something similar for the last one).

When all four statements are considered true, we are left with an idea of three personas wrapped in one.

Yes, but the fourth one makes absolutely no sense. You must first define the Holy Spirit.

The personas can and do act independently of each other... Jesus asks of the Father's forgiveness for humanity, and leaves the spirit in his place to comfort humanity.

Is the Holy Spirit, then, something that Jesus leaves behind when he is crucified (or ascends)?

God seems to leave Jesus when he is on the cross.

Which part of God?

Yet again, we believe that God was acting in unity - God does not disagree with God (or there would be no God left)

We might say that through the presence of at least one aspect, the whole trinity is present - each aspect serves a different function (ie creator, saviour and comforter/guide), but through the enacting of that function, the will and presence of God is made known and experienced. God is wherever one aspect of the trinity is experienced - in creation, in life, on the cross - and thus God is everywhere, all the time.

So if one part of the trinity is there, then God is there? Where are God the Father, God the Son, and the Holy Spirit, more specifically?

The concept of trinity is difficult - you might also say it is one of two fundamental doctrines of Christianity.
a) the belief in father/creator, son and spirit
b) the necessity of son for the saving of the world.

All christians believe on these two factors. Its when we talk about what they mean that fights break out

Yes, but the concept seems contradictory to me. There is no God but God, yet he has three parts that act independently of each other.

 

[Yom]

Jesus' prayers were to the Father. Look at the lord's prayer, where he spoke to 'our father in heaven'.

Does that mean that Jesus is less powerful than God the Father?

It is important to remember, I think, the uniqueness and specificity of Jesus time on earth, as opposed to the eternal state God exists in.

Then does Jesus no longer exist, or does his divinity (but not body) still exist?

Jesus coming to earth naturally suspended the standard order of things -

It can't actually be explained in a nice little package. It can be accepted or rejected - it is a unique, one of a kind reality that we can paint metaphors for, but in reality will never be able to grasp (as you showed quite well in your questions regarding the apple analogy)

Yes, but if it can't be grasped, who's to say that it is correct? If I came up with a unifying theory of anything that could not be understood by anyone, why should anyone believe it?