The wall and invisible have me puzzled

[Frogmanx82]

So my neighbor has this wall around his territory and my units can't cross it, even in war. I ended up making peace with them since I couldn't attack. How did he get that wall and what do I do to get around it?

Invisible units seem indestructible except you can dominate them. I picked up a couple this way and if you attack wisely, they don't seem to have a natural enemy. Is there a unit that can see these guys?

 

[WCH]

I think some recon units can see invisible...

 

[Kasdar]

So my neighbor has this wall around his territory and my units can't cross it, even in war. I ended up making peace with them since I couldn't attack. How did he get that wall and what do I do to get around it?

The Wall is the Elohim worldspell, sanctuary. This lasts for 30 turnsand no-one can enter their borders.

 

[Frogmanx82]

I figured it was a world spell, but the manual I have 1.91 copied the Bannor worldspell info for the Elohim.

I still can find any units that can see invisible.

Thanks Kasdar for the quick reply.

WCH, while quick, your reply is less useful. Even the invisible units can't see other invisible units. Hunters can see hidden animals, but that doesn't work on the Shadows.

 

[MiKa523]

Yeah, I'm also a little confused about invisible units.
How can you see invisible units in esus-territory?
I tried Hawks, because the pedia says something like "can see stealth", but it didn't work.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

I think that Hawks can only see invisible units when they go on recon missions.

Most recon units can see invisible animals.

Empyrean UUs (Ratha and Radiant Guard) can always see invisible(_land) units.


No unit can be invisible in the lands of the owner of the Dies Diei (the Empyrean shrine), while all the units of the owner of the Nox Noctis are invisible within their own territory.

 

[MiKa523]

As I said, I tried Hawks and this includes of course recon mission.
Though the recon mission was on Nox Noctis territory, so I don't know wether Hawks can't counter invisibility at all or just in that special case.

 

[Blackmantle]

It is just in that case (hawks do spot invisible units while on recon-mission). And that case seems a bit like a bug or a glitch. (good question if it is fixable the way it is implemented just now.)

Only question from my side whould be what effect wins if Deis Dei and Nox Nocturnis are combined in one territory.

 

[Niveras]

... while all the units of the owner of the Nox Noctis are invisible within their own territory.

Except units in cities.

 

[WCH]

This sounds incredibly broken... if you're not playing as Empyrean, how are you supposed to counter all the invisible units?

 

[Blackmantle]

normal ones with hawks, floating eyes and via other ways. (in fact hawks are horribly overpowered / underpriced and normal invisiblity very much underpowered because of it. At least if a human player encounters it.)

Nox Nocturnis: Not at all in any way (not even empyrean i have heard somewhere).
But that not only seems broken but very much seems like a bug. And i for one whould expect that this one will change.

 

[xienwolf]

FfH uses 2 types of Invisible: INVISIBLE_LAND (super Invis. Shadows use this), and INVISIBLE_ANIMAL (nuisance Invis. Giant Spiders use this)


Most recon units can see INVISIBLE_ANIMAL (pedia will say "Can see Invisible Animals"), Hawks and a few Upper end Recon Units can see INVISIBLE_LAND (pedia will say "Can see Stealth"). Though it is possible to see multiple types of Invis, no units in FfH do so. Thus to have a "single unit" detect everything, you need a hunter carrying a Hawk.

When a Hawk does a Recon Mission, it "personally" views each of the tiles. Thus it will show you all INVISIBLE_LAND units, but none of the INVISIBLE_ANIMAL units, because the Hawk itself cannot see them.

No unit is ever considered Invisible while it is inside a City belonging to the same owner. This means that while a Giant Spider won't defend a Mine against a Warrior (Warrior cannot see it, so won't have any reason to be unable to enter the tile), it can defend a City.


Nox Noctis and Dies Diei are special cases. Nox Noctis makes units Invisible AND Undetectable. Absolutely nothing can EVER reveal them, and no units have even a CHANCE to detect them. Dies Diei will reveal ALL types of Invisible Units, even if you mod in a new Invisible Type of your own and don't provide the ability to see it to any units.

If you own both Dies Diei and Nox Noctis, there is no Conflict. Dies Diei only reveals units that do not belong to you. So while all of your units will be invisible (unless in a city), all other units will be completely visible.




@Frogman: You are using my manual? I just checked and the Elohim & Bannor Worldspells are listed properly.

 

[Frogmanx82]

xienwolf, I am using the 1.91 manual and while sanctuary is listed as the worldspell, the description of sanctuary is wrong.

 

[xienwolf]

Well, hopefully it is just an error which I have fixed since releasing 1.91 without remembering it at all (though that would be wierd since I am looking at the PDF version to verify), or just a strange glitch. 1.92 should be out soon here with some new additions.

Or maybe Sanctuary is listed in a forth location? I checked the text description in the Strategy section for Elohim, the table right above Corlindale on the next page, and the listing under the WorldSpells section.

 

[MiKa523]

Thanks for the clarification, xienwolf

 

[Pyr0mancer]

Wait, so even Empyrean Priests cannot see units that are in lands with the Nox Noctis? Does Revelation then not do anything against Nox Noctis?

 

[xienwolf]

Correct, it won't even allow you to cast Revelation if there is a unit next to you shrouded by Nox.

 

[Fafnir13]

This sounds....broken. Most counters to anything require you to at least know what's going on.
Having your invading stacks getting hit by maelstrom all the time and not being able to do anything about it...
Not being able to hunt down weakened units that have withdrawn from combat...
Your only available targets are entrenched city defenders, probably the last guys you'll be wanting to attack. It certainly doesn't give the noxis player a boost when invading or anything, but making retaliatory strikes becomes nigh impossible.

 

[Pyr0mancer]

Cavalry hit-and-run raids, or cavalry with flanking to reduce and conquer a city in one turn, would work fairly well. The raids just to do general economic damage, and Blitzkrieg-style warfare to reduce the time you're vulnerable. Also, the sooner you take the city the sooner their borders no longer cover that region, and the sooner all their hidden mages become not-so-hidden and vulnerable.

 

[xienwolf]

So far the only counter is that he cannot station defenders on any of his vital improvements. The only counter to you pillaging everything in his territory is a proactive strike against your invading army.