The War FOR Communism...

[Propaganda]

I know this belongs in Stories section, but let me explain the scenario, since it is so interesting. This is the probably the best game I have played so far(up until it crashed on me .)

I'm using the WW2 mod, and I'm playing as the USSR. China, Germany, Italy, Poland, Austria, Spain, Canada, Great Britain, Turkey, Japan and USA are all participants. I decided to play a peaceful, diplomatic game(though it wouldn't turn out like I wanted it to), and signed peace treaties with everyone, including an MPP with China. I decided to "cripple" some of the civs using the editor, by turning off some governor functions for some of them. I turned off "Manage Citizens" for Germany, Italy, Poland, Austria, Turkey, Japan and Spain, so they would lean on governments, such as Communism and Fascism, with military police available. This turned to my favor, somewhat. Immediately, Germany went for Fascism, right along with Italy; China decided for Communism, right along with Japan, and Turkey, while Austria went for Monarchy along with Spain. Poland, USA, Britain and Canada decided for Democracy. I conversed and mingled with all the Communist republics, giving them some gold per turn, and few techs here and there. After a while, I decided to trade with the Fascist counterparts, so I could keep good relations. I shunned the democratic states, leaning more on a world revolution for Communism; either by force, and or by diplomacy. BTW, I decided to "socialize" the Marxist governments, by giving them more free units per city, and lowering unit cost; some more than others. Communism got lower unit cost than Fascism, while Fascism got a little more free units. So, back to the game, Germany and Italy signed MPPs with each other and then proceeded to sign alliances with my communist counterparts, against Britain and Canada. Britain signed an alliance with America and Canada against Germany. I decided to sit on the fence, and spectate, just to see where the wind is blowing. A couple turns later, with Britain nearing extinction, Austria turned Communist(I regularly check the Army screen), with Spain following after. This is where it got interesting. China decided to sign a peace treaty, with all the other communist countries following; Italy decided for this too, with Britain, Canada and America. Germany pressed on, and wiped out Britain, and took some Canadian cities. Meanwhile, I decided to donate gold to Spain and Austria, and welcomed them aboard, with MPPs for both. I decided to do the same with Turkey and Japan, and compensated them a bit, after the fact. Surprisingly, Germany fought on, with the war on two fronts, and took EVEN MORE cities, from what I could see. Canada sued for peace, and eventually, America(They fought on for a couple more turns, but both countries were on different continents, and pretty much never got anywhere; this is why Germany was really succesful, I think). So, now, with Germany with a nice-sized empire, decided to attack Japan, whom I have an MPP with. I decided to intervene, and to my surprise, China and Austria decided to attack Germany, right along with me, after signing an alliance with each other. I proceeded to get Spain to help me out, and they did, with little compensation. After a couple turns, Germany was no more, with each of us leaving with a little something(of course, I got more than the others .) Italy was stagnant throughout this ordeal, and did not do anything to help Germany, so I decided to attack them, only to find some of their cities abondoned, or with little defensive forces. I pretty much destroyed them and they became part of my empire. A couple turns forward, after shunning Canada and America, they sign alliances against me, and attack my cities. With all my MPPs, all my comrades come to aid, and we destroy Canada. Britain, soon after, declares war on Spain, and once again, we triumph. Poland is nowhere near us or the democracies, for that matter; They're on a remote island, where Australia would be. After deciding on the fact, I sent some troops, with China aiding, and we leveled them too(after I saw their stacked forces fumbling about in my empire). America was left, so I decided to improve my military, to move ahead with my world seige for Communism. America was downed, because of the entire war, with a lot of their cities going into disorder(I figured this out using spies). Soon after, I check my army screen, and America is waving the red flag. I immediately gave them an audience, and signed for peace. Deciding to keep them happy, I also gave them gold per turn. After a few turns though, they went back to Democracy, and I signed some troops overseas, and that's where my game crashed. Argh

I feel so sorry that I didnt have auto-save on for this, because I would have liked to share this, but the game lags way too much under the new patch, so I decided against it. I hope you enjoyed the story though. It gave me a lot of satisfaction, playing this game. Well, I'm off to get some shut eye. Bye, and thanks for reading.

 

[WarlordMatt]

That sounds like the perfect game to me. Why'd you want Communisum for the whole world though?

 

[Propaganda]

Because I'm somewhat of a social-democrat/communist, believing that a communist "utopia" can be reached, if people have a goal to work for, and have reasonable power and say, in the affairs of the State.

So I'm a commie pinko, shoot me.

 

[Major Guevara]

Originally posted by Propaganda


So I'm a commie pinko, shoot me.

Watch out Propaganda the FBI might come and get you

 

[newfangle]

Utopian socialism is the ideal for any human except lawyers and oil tycoons. People are so blinded by right-wing propaganda ("CNN declares world's sexiest man: Ted Turner") it's sick. Also, Socialism tends not to F*** up the environment as much, and they often share beliefs with greener parties.

So I am a commie tree-huggin hippie, shoot me.

 

[Propaganda]

I agree.

Looking back through the pages of history, society has always been devided into classes; lords/serfs, monarchs/peasants, etc... Nothing has changed! Workers wake, and work hours, for the benefit of the bourgeuosie, the opressor of the opressed. We, the opressed, stagnate, while the opressor constantly elevates himself. We, by following the footsteps of our ancestors, retrace the steps that they lay, and therefore, live the past in the present. We, must once and for all, put a screeching halt on history, break the shackles of opression and lay new groundwork towards a more social, democratic peace, where comrades are bound by one another, not cast from each other. Once we have achieved this; The True Communist State; we, as society, will see no bounds.

"Workers of the countries Unite!"

Propaganda - working for world revolution, to free all those opressed.

 

[Jandor]

On another note communism in the game is a weak form of government, but i love it anyway

 

[tammi]

Interesting game that was...
I liked the way there was so little discrepancy.. it seems whenever i play it would always be allies and me and then them turning against one another, and soon after it turns into a backstabbing bloodbath...

i guess the germans were the only backstabbers in your game, i guess they were consumed by power and eventually fell on themselves...

 

[WarlordMatt]

Maybe someone should try a game where you try to get EVERYONE to stick to Despotism throughout the whole game.

 

[newfangle]

Just a side note. I live in Canada and whenever I argue with a capitalist about the downfalls of capitalism, they simply say that if I don't like my country I am free to leave. People with such simplistic views are the downfall of civilization.

 

[Sullla]

Originally posted by Propaganda
Looking back through the pages of history, society has always been devided into classes; lords/serfs, monarchs/peasants, etc... Nothing has changed! Workers wake, and work hours, for the benefit of the bourgeuosie, the opressor of the opressed. We, the opressed, stagnate, while the opressor constantly elevates himself. We, by following the footsteps of our ancestors, retrace the steps that they lay, and therefore, live the past in the present. We, must once and for all, put a screeching halt on history, break the shackles of opression and lay new groundwork towards a more social, democratic peace, where comrades are bound by one another, not cast from each other. Once we have achieved this; The True Communist State; we, as society, will see no bounds.

Oh yeah, I agree that society is just as stratified today as it was 100, 500, or even 5000 years ago. It's just that today instead of being separated by strength or noble blood, or society is divided into classes by intelligence. The wealthy can afford better education for their children, which translates into better paying jobs, which of course continues the cycle. I mean it's not like minorities are actually less intelligent because they score lower on standardized tests, it's just that they don't receive the kind of extensive preparation that rich white suburban kids (umm... like me) can get.

So yes, I agree with you on that point. But unfortunately I don't see how a socialist revolution can possibly ever end this. I mean, this has been tried before in the past, with less than great results. The problem is that no society can ever be 'classless' as inevitably certain people will have more desired skills than others, and will use their natural advantages to better their situation versus others. It's just human nature. The only way to have a really equal society would be if everyone were equal, and that's just not possible. A socialist revolution just replaces one top class with another, with some violence thrown in. I think that it's also been empirically proven that a capitalist economic system will outperform a socialist one every time.

I love the idea of a truly communist state in theory. But in practice, since that can't ever be achieved, I think that market capitalism with government socialistic controls in place is probably the best that can be achieved.

 

[Propaganda]

Originally posted by Sullla


Oh yeah, I agree that society is just as stratified today as it was 100, 500, or even 5000 years ago. It's just that today instead of being separated by strength or noble blood, or society is divided into classes by intelligence. The wealthy can afford better education for their children, which translates into better paying jobs, which of course continues the cycle. I mean it's not like minorities are actually less intelligent because they score lower on standardized tests, it's just that they don't receive the kind of extensive preparation that rich white suburban kids (umm... like me) can get.

So yes, I agree with you on that point. But unfortunately I don't see how a socialist revolution can possibly ever end this. I mean, this has been tried before in the past, with less than great results. The problem is that no society can ever be 'classless' as inevitably certain people will have more desired skills than others, and will use their natural advantages to better their situation versus others. It's just human nature. The only way to have a really equal society would be if everyone were equal, and that's just not possible. A socialist revolution just replaces one top class with another, with some violence thrown in. I think that it's also been empirically proven that a capitalist economic system will outperform a socialist one every time.

I love the idea of a truly communist state in theory. But in practice, since that can't ever be achieved, I think that market capitalism with government socialistic controls in place is probably the best that can be achieved.

You are mistaken.

Equality cannot be achieved, only because of forces bigger than it.
These forces are the bourgeisie. The bourgeisie, the force behind all those opressed, works to stifle it. With equality, it can no longer prosper above all else. It can no longer gloat, or dictate; it loses all power. It is afraid.

It, must be overthrown. Once overthrown, we will consolidate our abilities for the good of Society. No longer shackled by opression, we will prosper more than any civilization has before.

This, however, can only be reached with true Socialism. All means of production must be given to the peoples of the State, and must be run by them. Economy must be planned by all members of society, and all plans must be carried out by said members. No private ownership, excluding housing, must be allowed. All freedoms must be available to all peoples. If said premise is in place, there is no longer a need for classes, as all is already available to all participants of society.

 

[Evie]

The only problem is, of course, once we overthrow that instalation, is that a pure socialist society require an elite in control, too (communist party), until pure communism can be reached - and that elite is hardly likely to give up control without another revolution. But then, you can't move directly from "revolution" to "communism" - you need to once again start working toward preparing the country toward utopian communism...which will once again fail, because the new elite you set in charge will refuse to give up power...

IE, there is a major flaw in communism.

I'm with Sulla. The best we can have is a free-market society with a socialist-measure government watching over it to prevent excess and try to ensure at least that no one is shamelessly exploited. Social-democracy, in other terms.

 

[Propaganda]

Originally posted by Oda Nobunaga
...and that elite is hardly likely to give up control without another revolution...

All people must not be judged in the same sense.

There are either true leaders of the people, or those who were never meant to be.

 

[gonzo_for_civ]

Just to add in on the communism thing, the problems with communism and socialism are as follow(well, some of them):

1) Look at Cuba, Communist, rationed, but still a lower and middle class. Why? Well, a family of 10 gets the same rations as a family of 2. See the problem?

2) All these Utopias would require a crime free society with everyone agreeing and everybody happy. Bottomline: Everyone would have to be the same, with the same views. When that's violated, people riot, and in comes the violence and harsh rule.

3) After looking at what's needed for these perfect societies, people realize that a "perfect" communist/socialist society will never exist. And the next best thing is: Democracy

I'm not claiming that democracy is perfect, but I do claim that it is better than communism. If everyone wakes up tomorrow and decides to share everything, then go ahead and call me communist, until then: Democracy Forever!!

Also, if you think I am against the communist ideals, i am not, but I believe that people with large families need more and that people with small families would actually need to control their jealosy when they see what the large families have. That's just not gonna happen, so hop on the raft and head towards Florida, Cubans.

P.S. It helps if you play baseball afterwards.....

 

[Propaganda]

Originally posted by gonzo_for_civ
Just to add in on the communism thing, the problems with communism and socialism are as follow(well, some of them):

1) Look at Cuba, Communist, rationed, but still a lower and middle class. Why? Well, a family of 10 gets the same rations as a family of 2. See the problem?

2) All these Utopias would require a crime free society with everyone agreeing and everybody happy. Bottomline: Everyone would have to be the same, with the same views. When that's violated, people riot, and in comes the violence and harsh rule.

3) After looking at what's needed for these perfect societies, people realize that a "perfect" communist/socialist society will never exist. And the next best thing is: Democracy

I'm not claiming that democracy is perfect, but I do claim that it is better than communism. If everyone wakes up tomorrow and decides to share everything, then go ahead and call me communist, until then: Democracy Forever!!

Also, if you think I am against the communist ideals, i am not, but I believe that people with large families need more and that people with small families would actually need to control their jealosy when they see what the large families have. That's just not gonna happen, so hop on the raft and head towards Florida, Cubans.

P.S. It helps if you play baseball afterwards.....

Cuba, The Soviet Union, China, Vietnam..

What do all of the above mentioned have in common?

Nothing, as it pertains to true Socialism/Communism.

These are/were fumbled-up forms of despotism, driven by tyranny and greed.

 

[WarlordMatt]

I wish they included dictatorship as a government. They're gonna have to make one for a good WWII scenario

 

[Demetrias]

propaganda your just gonna have to face the facts all humans are not equal. i know it says that in our bill of rights but they just are not. Steven Hawking is far smarter then me or you he just is you can not create a perfect human society because humans are not perfect. Have you always done the right thing have you never messed up? To create an ideal world where everyone had a say in the Government directly and everyone controling everything would be unrealistic. The society would degrade into anarchy as everyone fought and argued about everything. Then despotisms would take over as strong men and or women took what they wanted from everyone else and then we would be in a worse state then we are. I think Churchill once said Democracy is the worse form of government until you think of the alternatives. No government last forever i just hope that this one will last a lot longer and will be replaced by another democracy even if it is a socialist democracy. There is no problem with socialist ideas but you must admit that Lennin held your same views and not long after his death the tyranny just got worse. Democracy is the only form of government that should exists. Parliamentary Monarchy is still a democracy.

 

[Propaganda]

Originally posted by Demetrias
propaganda your just gonna have to face the facts all humans are not equal. i know it says that in our bill of rights but they just are not. Steven Hawking is far smarter then me or you he just is you can not create a perfect human society because humans are not perfect. Have you always done the right thing have you never messed up? To create an ideal world where everyone had a say in the Government directly and everyone controling everything would be unrealistic. The society would degrade into anarchy as everyone fought and argued about everything. Then despotisms would take over as strong men and or women took what they wanted from everyone else and then we would be in a worse state then we are. I think Churchill once said Democracy is the worse form of government until you think of the alternatives. No government last forever i just hope that this one will last a lot longer and will be replaced by another democracy even if it is a socialist democracy. There is no problem with socialist ideas but you must admit that Lennin held your same views and not long after his death the tyranny just got worse. Democracy is the only form of government that should exists. Parliamentary Monarchy is still a democracy.

Equality has many different faces, and views on it vary. In my outlook, I believe equality is commoradory, the unification of all peoples striving for one goal, for the betterment of all Society. It does not look to strip down all people, into a one-minded society, but to simply unite them, as stated above.

In this sense, a true People's Republic can be achieved. Of course, there will be mistakes made, but from those mistakes, Society will learn. It will learn to negotiate and compromise, and in turn, improve their well-being and reach prosperity.

But, a chance must be given for all to achieve such goals.

As for Lenin, he was a future thinker, ahead of his time. What he wanted to achieve, just wasn't feasible in such a backwards state of society.

The time, however, is now.

 

[Kilroy]

As a former socialist myself I find this argument quite interesting. Perhaps one of the most important questions to ask about a socialist revolution is "is it worth it?" Based upon past experiences, it's quite easy to conclude that any socialist revolution is putting a LOT of lives at stake. Russia, China, Cambodia, all these nations and more have lost MILLIONS of people to socialist revolutions. And, all these revolutions were led in no small part by people who were quite idealist. Lenin, Mao, Pol Pot, these men uttered words quite similar to those posted above. Yet all these men are responsible for millions of deaths.

However, just as no system of government is perfect, no system of government is without advantages. In the cases of Russia and China, communism industrialized nations at a pace that probably would not have been matched by a more free-market government and economy. The United States' economy during World War 2 resembled in many ways that of a communism. However, note that all three of these cases are very situational: Russia was being ruined by a corrupt aristocracy, China was being victimized by the West, and the US had a two-theatre war to fight. Trying times indeed. Also, you'll note that Cambodia, Vietnam, and much of the former Soviet Bloc received none of the benefits of a collective economy.

Depending on the circumstances, different regimes will become more or less appealing. A purely laissez-faire economy is not going to perform well in a war. Totalitarianism is wholly unsuitable for peacetime. Democracy requires an informed and reserved populace to be successful. A collective economy will fail to make efficient use of resources in the long term, as counter-intuitive as that may seem. A market economy will become oppressive in the long term if left unchecked.

Anyone who holds any government or economy up as the ideal in every possible situation is deluding themselves. Either that, or they have a vested interest in one over all the others.