The worlds two largest EVER empires not in game??

[Fenebrae]

LOL@ British vs English discussion.
Also: Ohi!

The Dutch empire, at its height, was the world’s Hegemon (England didn’t rise to smell the roses until after we stole their throne), was the first thorough capitalist country, had the first stock exchange and was truly an economic and military force to reckon with.

Of course, nowadays we are mostly known for windmills, wooden shoes, delicious cheeses, a semi-decent red-light district and an exceptionally successful soft drugs policy that the rest of the world loves to hate.. Oh well.

 

[mattigus]

My homeland is awesome. Your homeland sucks.

There, I just saved everybody who wanted to post in this thread the time.

 

[Quackers]

Like I said in my first point, England is mentioned 4 times in the "England" section, and Great Britain is mentioned 11 times.

England <> Great Britain. The worst part of it is, England basically gave nothing culturally to Great Britain, or the world. If they've left out the mongols because of that then I see no reason to include England by the same measure.

I think your nationalism is fatalling affecting your rationalism

 

[uat2d]

Portugal and Spain are out, so my guess is that they'll sell us those in a DLC.

It better be cheap or totally worth it. And I also don't want to wait like 3 years to be able to play with Portugal without a mod.

 

[acm2033]

LOL@ British vs English discussion.
Also: Ohi!

The Dutch empire, at its height, was the world’s Hegemon (England didn’t rise to smell the roses until after we stole their throne), was the first thorough capitalist country, had the first stock exchange and was truly an economic and military force to reckon with.

Of course, nowadays we are mostly known for windmills, wooden shoes, delicious cheeses, a semi-decent red-light district and an exceptionally successful soft drugs policy that the rest of the world loves to hate.. Oh well.

I'm in agreement here. The Dutch had ports and controlled the ocean chokepoints all over the world--Dutch East Indies, Taiwan (Formosa), Africa... They were pioneers of western European expansion around the world.

Holland was a safe harbor for political and religious non-conformists during the Renaissance. Very influential in world history.

 

[Lord Arska]

We're talking about civilizations here, not countries.

In Civ IV, one of the leaders of the Russian civilization was Stalin.

In real history he ruled the Soviet Union. I'm not familiar with the nuances of the Soviet constitution but I'm pretty sure that every republic (Russian SFSR, Ukrainian SSR etc.) was constitutionally equal.

Still it was named "the Russian civilization" because Russians were the majority there. Why can't they do the same with Britain? Surely it can be called "the English civilization"?

I don't want to offend anyone. I'm just giving my opinion.

 

[RagnorIronpants]

The worst part of it is, England basically gave nothing culturally to Great Britain, or the world.

Says the Scot speaking English

Chillout, man. This has been the case with every Civ game ever, and it's not just Americans, Europeans struggle with the difference sometimes as well. And at least Edinburgh's in the game this time, and other than the Civilopedia (which was probably written by someone other than the people who designed the factions) the Kingdom represented is England before the personal union with Scotland when James VI/I took the throne. So other than the 'pedia text, which you can edit, it does represent the English Empire in the period of the first colonization of the Americas - which was a pretty important period.

And to be fair, if they did have the sense to choose Great Britain they'd have another problem - which Great Britain? If they went for the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland and included Dublin and Belfast there'd be a hugggggggge fuss. If they went for the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland they'd pick the empire when it was at its greatest extent but beginning to decline. They're clearly not going to put that much thought into it, considering the game starts in 4000bc.

On top of that IV was full of other stupid errors. Victoria was not just Queen of Great Britain, but also the Empress of another civilization in the game - India. What about Russia? Why are they considered to be the same state as the Soviet Union? Why did China have a ruler from a Mongolian royal line? Why were the Eastern and Western Roman Empires represented in a game with Greece? Why is America called America (the name of a continent) when it should be called the United States of America to differentiate the US from other Americans (in fact, how many states does America represent in the game?)? Why was Constantinople and Istanbul in the same game? Oh yeah, cus it's just a game.

It's also ironic that people are annoyed that the success of English imperialism in claiming Scottish identity and achievements means Scotland isn't recognised for being, uhhh, a major player in the biggest empire ever. If I was Scottish I'd be annoyed that the Picts, Scots, and other celtic countries' success in resisting Roman and English expansion was being overlooked, rather than the fact that Scots helped the English collect slaves, bombard Americans, kill French people, "keep China British", etc etc.

 

[Grimberht]

they cant put to much Civilisation in Vanilla version, they need good argument to makes us buy an expansion

 

[kettyo]

It's really a non-issue because neither Britain nor England could be defined as a CIVILIZATION. They could be defined as kingdoms, empires, countries, nations, but not as a civilization. In fact in reality the whole 'Western Civilization' is handled as one substance, derived from the ancient Greek-Roman civilization.

Huntington's Clash of Civilizations make a good approach to it. Check out this map (from wikipedia):
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/d5/Clash_of_Civilizations_map2.png

 

[Kruelgor]

In fact in reality the whole 'Western Civilization' is handled as one substance, derived from the ancient Greek-Roman civilization.

This is true!

 

[Jimbo30]

Says the Scot speaking English

"English" is a west GERMANIC language which spread to England and then Scotland.

Also, like most scots I'm bi-lingual, that is I can speak or write both Scots and English. The fact that I choose to write in English is for the same reason everybody else does.

Chillout, man. This has been the case with every Civ game ever, and it's not just Americans, Europeans struggle with the difference sometimes as well. And at least Edinburgh's in the game this time, and other than the Civilopedia (which was probably written by someone other than the people who designed the factions) the Kingdom represented is England before the personal union with Scotland when James VI/I took the throne. So other than the 'pedia text, which you can edit, it does represent the English Empire in the period of the first colonization of the Americas - which was a pretty important period.

Putting Edinburgh in the game under the English flag is another affront lol. Again I must reiterate - why are there so many mentions of "Great Britain" under the England section? It's simple, before Great Britain, the English weren't very...great. Powerful sure, but nowhere near the power Great Britain as a whole made.

And to be fair, if they did have the sense to choose Great Britain they'd have another problem - which Great Britain? If they went for the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland and included Dublin and Belfast there'd be a hugggggggge fuss. If they went for the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland they'd pick the empire when it was at its greatest extent but beginning to decline. They're clearly not going to put that much thought into it, considering the game starts in 4000bc.

So why even mention Great Britain at all? Keep it England...oh wait now we have a problem because England was never really great.

It's also ironic that people are annoyed that the success of English imperialism in claiming Scottish identity and achievements means Scotland isn't recognised for being, uhhh, a major player in the biggest empire ever. If I was Scottish I'd be annoyed that the Picts, Scots, and other celtic countries' success in resisting Roman and English expansion was being overlooked, rather than the fact that Scots helped the English collect slaves, bombard Americans, kill French people, "keep China British", etc etc.

There are plenty of reasons for why Scotland is deserving of it's own spot in Civ, but that's a different argument, and unfortunately will never happen so long as England gets to play "Great Britain" all by itself.

I noticed firaxis removed the Ankor Wat from the Siam backround picture (or I read something about it). How is that any different from making Edinburgh (the Scottish capital) an English city, or giving England total dominion of Great Britain?

Can I just remind you that Scotland won the Wars of Independence btw? Anybody would be offended by having their capital city claimed by another, game or not and Firaxis's constant overlooking of these simple facts just goes on and on. What's worse, the civilopedia is full of Scots scientist, economists and inventions we gave the world...all of which are being claimed by England, oh sorry "Great Britain".

There is simply no need for it. How would Americans feel if Firaxis excluded them from the game and said "oh you're basically just an English colony anyway"?

 

[Aegis]

There is simply no need for it. How would Americans feel if Firaxis excluded them from the game and said "oh you're basically just an English colony anyway"?

The day that your people grow the balls necessary to declare their independence and break off from England's rule is the day that you can have your own separate civ in a video game.

 

[ytswy]

Everybody knows that England, United Kingdom, Great Britain, British Empire whatever you want to call them are all the same in the sense that their capital is London and their motherland is England.

You tell them!

Specifically, you tell them. I plan to be at a safe distance with the popcorn

 

[Smidgey]

Well, for a start, the leader Firaxis have Chosen was Queen of England almost 200 years before Great Britain even existed.

It wouldn't have been hard to choose Churchill, Victoria, Disraeli, Gladstone or any other great Briton...

But you mention that, but what about the fact that England has two attributes that are clearly British, a unique unit and their special ability. As for their other unique unit, it's hardly entirely English either.

Without wanting to be insulting, I'm unable to see how how your grandfather is related to this? If it makes a difference then my grandfather fought tyranny in the Korean War, he wasn't killed I'm thankful to say. But all thats irrelevant, we're talking about a game here, and if it was any other leader I'd be inclined to argue for a Great British civ. But it isn't. So England is fine.

Because much of what makes up the English civilisation in civ 5 is actually British (as mentioned above). To declare them as English only, as the game does, is insulting to those, both civilian and military, that helped build Britain into the nation that it became/has become. People gave their very lives for their country and to have it ignored like that by people who appear to have a very poor grasp of geography and/or history is quite insulting (by that I refer to the team who worked on civilisation five).

 

[Reginleif]

Firaxis clearly choose civs for other reasons than "Teh Biggest EMPERE!" From what I have played anyway the "prehistoric" or "minor powers" are the best civilizations to play, both thematically and gameplay.

 

[Modiga-Disabled]

The British Empire and the English Empire are intertwined to the extent it's hard to include both.

 

[kettyo]

Putting Edinburgh in the game under the English flag is another affront lol.

I agree.

England being in the game instead of Britain is fine for me but putting Edinburgh as an English city is pretty much an insult to Scotland. Edinburgh could have been a city-state instead.

 

[techathon]

The British empire is the largest ever empire the world has seen and not in game( and I don't think including the English empire will keep all Scots happy). Secondly the Mongol empire was the largest land based empire ever and not included. But the real kill is that America is in ther correct me if I'm wrong but what empire has America ever had? Does Hawaii and Alaska count as an empire?

It's because they are not over 9000 that they were not included in the game.

 

[Jimbo30]

I agree.

England being in the game instead of Britain is fine for me but putting Edinburgh as an English city is pretty much an insult to Scotland. Edinburgh could have been a city-state instead.

Hmm to be fair, while playing the demo I just found Edinburgh as a city state. I'm not sure how it works, maybe that means England isn't in my game or something?

 

[kettyo]

BTW only settled cultures (with agricultural origins) can be civilizations as civilization really means something like 'constructed world'. So nomadic cultures like the Mongols or hunter-gatherer cultures like most of native Americans are excluded by definition. It does not mean inferior at all just cannot be considered civilized. The fact that such parties are playable in the Civ series means that the developers use the term 'civilization' much instead of the term 'culture'.