Thebes in Egypt vs. Thebes in Greece

[Apollo]

Why do these two ancient cities have the same name? Is it just coincidence? Or maybe a historian mixed the names up and called one city by the name of the other, and it stuck? If it is a modern mistake, then what was the original name?

These were two important cities in the ancient world and I find it odd that they would have the same name. My guess is that there was a mistake in the translation to English, but if this is true then they would have different names in some of the other languages people speak on this forum, so do they?

Finally, how do you pronounce this name? I have heard it pronounced both "theebs" and "theebees". The dictionary says it is pronounced "theebs" and that is the way that I've always said it, but I'd be curious to hear how others pronounce it.

 

[Nahuixtelotzin]

It's pronounced "Theebs" and I can tell you that the "original" Thebes is that in Greece. Of course the Egyptian one is older, but the city name is definitely greek. Many egyptian sites have greek names, so I guess the renaming took place in the 4th and 3rd century BC under Ptolemean rule. Today we don't know the original egyptian names, so we have to use the Greek ones.
I can't tell you WHY the Greeks called the egyptian city after the greek Thebes though...

 

[Sodak]

Originally posted by Nahuixtelotzin
Today we don't know the original egyptian names, so we have to use the Greek ones.

For many cities, anyway. I remember reading that Heliopolis was originally called On by the locals. Perhaps someone here knows of more?

 

[Nahuixtelotzin]

I kind of recall that "No", a city in the Old Testament , has been identified as Thebes. But I don't know more about it.

 

[das]

"No" way I will believe Old Testament, I am not religous!

But whatever it's name is, I think that Thebes was given that name by Greek historiands, and that's the way it got to the west and Russia.

 

[das]

Oh and on Russian it's pronounced Fivi.

 

[Apollo]

I found this post by calgacus in an old thread in Civ3 General Discussions:

"The Thebes on the Egyptian list should be Waset (the ancient Egyptian name), as the Greek city of Thebes in Boeotia was one of the most important ancient Greek cities. Alexandria might have been territotially IN the land called Egypt, but the city itself was most definitely inside the orbit of Greek (Hellenistic) culture and not ancient Egyptian culture. To put Alexandria in the Egyptian list is similar to placing New York in an Amerindian city list."

So I guess it was called Waset, and then the Greeks changed it to Thebes for some reason while they controlled the area? I wonder if maybe they called it New Thebes and the New was dropped over the years, like the English renaming New Amsterdam to New York once they took it.

 

[elfstorm]

Originally posted by Nahuixtelotzin
I can't tell you WHY the Greeks called the egyptian city after the greek Thebes though...

I don't KNOW why the Greeks called it Thebes, but if I were to hazard a guess I'd say it might have something to do with the destruction of Thebes in Greece.

Remember Alexander destroyed Thebes (utterly) a few years before he conquered Egypt. This Egyptian city may have been renamed by him or his successors in memory of the Greek city.

But thats just an educated guess...

As for what Apollo was saying about Alexandria etc. in a way he's quite right but if Cleopatra is to be Queen of Egypt then I think Alexandria and all the Greek names should stay. After all she was a member of the ruling Greek dynasty in Egypt. (Following this logic Alexandria should become capital of Egypt...)

 

[Pangur Bán]

It might have something to do with the sphinx myth, associated with the Greek Thebes. Still, that doesn't explain why Waset, rather than Memphis or Elephantine, was named Thebes .

 

[Stefan Haertel]

The earliest evidence I know of, that this city was called "Thebes" by the Greeks (or, Thebai, which is the correct Greek form), is from Herodotus, who wrote his Histories in about 450 BC. But everything he writes about Thebes he does in a manner, as if everybody knew which city was meant, so I believe the Greeks called the city "Thebes" long before that.

 

[Rodgers]

I always thought it was because it was founded by Greek merchant traders who weren't allowed into Egyptian cities themselves so formed a trading post of their own to buy/sell in with the natives

 

[Stefan Haertel]

No, that was Naukratis, a city in the delta. Thebes is further south, at the site of today's Luxor.

 

[Locutus]

The reason why we use Greek names for Egyptian cities today is simply becuase for a long time we couldn't read the Egyptian hieroglyphs and had no idea what the Egyptian names were, and were therefore forced to fall back on Greek and Roman sources. By the time the Egyptian writing was decyphered, the habit of using Greek names had already established itself firmly. For (almost?) all Egyptian cities we know the ancient Egyptian name perfectly well, but we've grown used to the Greek names. (And yes, Waset is indeed the Egyptian name for Thebes).

I saw this thread at work earlier today and was bored (not very busy in the summer months), so I did some research on the Net. Apparently the Greek Heracles/Hercules, who was from the Greek city of Thebes, had Egyptian parents and was named (by the Greeks) after the ancient Egyptian god Shu, whom the Greeks (surprisingly) referred to as Heracles (much of this can be found in History of Herodotus, book II, 43-47). The somewhat famous pharaoh Senusret I was known by the Greeks as Heracles Kharops (he too was named after the god) and had the Egyptian Thebes as his capital city. Although I haven´t found an explicit mention of a link, it would make sense that the Greeks started referring to Waset as Thebes because of this connection.

 

[Nahuixtelotzin]

Originally posted by Locutus
The reason why we use Greek names for Egyptian cities today is simply becuase for a long time we couldn't read the Egyptian hieroglyphs and had no idea what the Egyptian names were, and were therefore forced to fall back on Greek and Roman sources.

So the Greeks built up Thebes completely on ruins? Or on an existing egyptian settlement. If so, they should have known the name from the Egyptians themselves without the need of deciphering hieroglyphs.