There is a Bermuda Triangle in CIV II

Status
Not open for further replies.

AGRICOLA

Warlord
Joined
Nov 19, 2002
Messages
211
Location
Canadian bush & Florida
This may be a known bug in CIV II MGE, but it’s the first time I’ve come across it.

I was play testing “How Few Remain” beta, a Civil War scen by our_man. Playing the Confederates (with the British as allies) I was keeping careful tabs on the Union navy in the Atlantic. The presence of numerous British units helped greatly as AI controlled ships are (in)famous for their ability to find enemy vessels. The strong Brit forces located and eliminated most of the US navy before the Confederates had to do it.

However, after the Confederacy had captured all Union port cities, there was an apparent discrepancy in the Defence Advisor’s casualty list. Although the author had stated that Union and Reb naval strength was approximately equal, there were too few Union naval casualties. Also, the actions of British ships did not suggest that there were more Union vessels cruising in the Atlantic.

After completing the play testing some turns later, I went back to the monthly saves to see what had happened.

On the turn that the Rebs took Boston, a Union port city, there was a stack of 4 Union ships in the Bermuda Triangle, just NW of the British base at Bermuda.

The stack contained

Frigate (NONE)
Monitor (Boston)
Monitor (NONE)
Frigate (Boston)

When the Rebs captured Boston, all 4 ships were lost, rather than only the two homed to Boston. A little bit of testing found that, if any stack contains one or more ships homed to a city that is captured, the whole stack is lost. It does not matter if the other ships, ground units or aircraft in the stack are homed to NONE or to other cities. Also, somewhat dismayingly, the same thing happens to a human player’s stack if the AI captures the home city of one of the ships in a stack. Furthermore, the bug is present in both scenarios and regular CIV II games.

This does not happen with stacks that contain only ground and/or air units.

Does anyone know what causes this or a way to get around it besides not stacking ships homed to endangered cities with units from “safe” cities?
 
AGRICOLA said:
Does anyone know... a way to get around it besides not stacking ships homed to endangered cities with units from “safe” cities?
Simple...don't lose any cities! ;)

(Sorry. I couldn't resist.)

Actually sounds like an interesting bug. Probably obvious, but are you patched?

Edit to remove question that was answered in the original post. :wallbash:
 
Obviously a bug. This is perhaps too obvious, but why not contact support?
 
anarchywrksbest said:
Maybe it's because you don't get NONE naval vessels in the normal game?
Yes you can, by bribing in the appropriate locations.
 
Might not be a bug -- consider the case of a boat with passengers -- if one of two passengers belong to the city (now taken) does that passenger

a) become a NONE? (Not in this game)
b) belong to the new civ (only if close, but not in the storyline above)
c) vanish because the support is gone (makes sense) -- and if so may cause the 'non-allieds' to vanish as well (maybe an explosion)

Might be interesting to examine via cheat mode with mixes of supported, NONEs and "safe -- supported elsewhere" as well as stacks of ships and mixes of ships with passengers. Would the 'safe' ships save the NONEs?
 
Old n Slow said:
Might not be a bug -- consider the case of a boat with passengers --

I am guessing it is a bug of sorts related to this very situation. When a ship is lost because of the city being lost, we all know the game won't allow its passengers to swim for shore. (Tanks don't float that well. ;) ) It is probably trying to kill all the passengers aboard the ship, and they just got sloppy with the code in this situation and they kill everything in the square.

On the other hand, it could be on purpose, signifying that the lack of support causes the ship to explode with such a force that it sinks all nearby ships as well. :crazyeye: (Sorry, it's Friday. Long week.)
 
I think it's a bug, because IIRC there was also another way of triggering it...

Just put a bunch of ships in a square far from the coast. Then move a triremme or any other lost-far-from-coast unit in the stack... if the unit sinks, the whole stack will be lost.
 
TimTheEnchanter said:
On the other hand, it could be on purpose, signifying that the lack of support causes the ship to explode with such a force that it sinks all nearby ships as well. :crazyeye:
Triremes are, indeed, well-known for their tendency to explode particularly when the crewmen don't get their weekly alotments of olive oil.
 
When I play the game, I always keep those NONE units very carefully. Some time, I send my explorer to far land and search those relics for NONE units on purpose. A NONE archer who's defending himself on a mountain neighboring a capitol of another civ may stop the developing of that civ for a long time. Thus, I can enjoy in watching my steal bombers flying over the heads of it's primitive fighting units such as archers and horsemen.
When I happened to play a demo game downloaded from internet, I found in that demo, if the number of my cities is large enough, new cities would produce NONE units. The bad thing is, when I have so many cities, the advantage of NONE units is not important anymore. :(
 
I don't know who our_man is but it sounds like someone is taking credit for my work.
 
Originally posted by Mondas
I don't know who our_man is but it sounds like someone is taking credit for my work.

I would suggest that you post your comments at Apolyton

in the Civilization II>Scenario League/Civ2-Creation forum where our_man's

"How Few Remain Released" thread is located.


Maybe I'm reading too much into your choice of words, but have you actually downloaded the scen and looked at it?
 
Originally posted by Mondas
I don't know who our_man is but it sounds like someone is taking credit
for my work.

I've had a chance to reflect a bit more on your unexpected and surprising post about our_man plagiarizing your work.

1. I e-mailed a copy of your accusation to him because I don't know if he frequents CFC.

2. It would be most helpful to know exactly what work of yours you are accusing him of plagiarizing.

3. For him to plagiarize your work, yours has to be available for downloading . I could not locate anything of yours either at CFC, Apolyton or any of the other sources of Civ2 downloads. Perhaps you could indicate where one can find it.

4. I did a quick check of your posts at CFC. I found your recent statement that

Originally posted by Mondas
I just made a scenario and I can't get the event files to work.
somewhat surprising in view of the sophisticated EVENTS file in How Few Remain. This, and other questions you have posted, suggest to me that you have a hell of a lot to learn before you even begin to comprehend what is involved in making a first class, original scenario.

5. Plagiarism is a form of cheating. Any form of cheating has always been viewed with great disfavour by the Civ community. There are a number of threads at CFC from past years that deal with multi-player games where a participant has been accused of cheating. Invariably, before another player made the accusation, he had irrefutable proof.

I believe you owe the Civ community an explanation of your accusation. In other words, put up or shut up.
 
@ Mondas

As our_man is not registered a CFC, he has asked that I post the following message to you:

"if he (Mondas) wants to address any comments with regard to How Few Remain, he can do so at:"

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=116878


PS by AGRICOLA: In case you are not registered at Apolyton, let me assure you that it is no more difficult to register there than it was for you to register here at CFC.
 
TimTheEnchanter said:
It is probably trying to kill all the passengers aboard the ship, and they just got sloppy with the code in this situation and they kill everything in the square.

The situation is different, however, for cities that are destroyed via attack that contain units supported elsewhere, but with a twist. Of course, the question was brought up under the guise of naval units outside the city with NON units in the same square, but...

Say that you have a size one city, no walls, and it contains two pikemen. One is a NON and the other is supported by the city. If the city is destroyed, the NON pikeman still exists, because the supported pikeman lost the battle. There are no other units from the destroyed city that the code has to eliminate.

However, same situation, size one city, no walls, and it contains three pikemen. Two are supported by the city and the other is a NON. When this city is destroyed, all units are eliminated because of the 'bug' brought up here.

Hate to say it, but I have seen this happen too many times. :sad:
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top Bottom