Thermopylae

[Kyriakos]

My translation of a poem by Constantine Cavafy, given today is the anniversary of the declaration of independence by Greece, in 1821.

Thermopylae


Glory be to those who in their lives
tend to and protect Thermopylae.
Never to take leave from their duty;
just and forward in all of their actions,
but also with sadness and compassion;
brave while they are wealthy, and when
they are poor also brave to some smaller degree,
again coming to aid as much as they can;
always speaking the truth,
but without hatred for those who lie.


And even more glory to them is due
when they predict (and many of them do predict)
that Ephialtes will in the end appear,
and the Medes will finally pass.

(original follows)

Θερμοπύλες


Τιμή σ’ εκείνους όπου στην ζωή των
ώρισαν και φυλάγουν Θερμοπύλες.
Ποτέ από το χρέος μη κινούντες·
δίκαιοι κ’ ίσιοι σ’ όλες των τες πράξεις,
αλλά με λύπη κιόλας κ’ ευσπλαχνία·
γενναίοι οσάκις είναι πλούσιοι, κι όταν
είναι πτωχοί, πάλ’ εις μικρόν γενναίοι,
πάλι συντρέχοντες όσο μπορούνε·
πάντοτε την αλήθεια ομιλούντες,
πλην χωρίς μίσος για τους ψευδομένους.

Και περισσότερη τιμή τούς πρέπει
όταν προβλέπουν (και πολλοί προβλέπουν)
πως ο Εφιάλτης θα φανεί στο τέλος,
κ’ οι Μήδοι επί τέλους θα διαβούνε.

 

[Zkribbler]

"Tell the people of Sparta that here we lie, obedient to their wishes."

 

[Peuri]

Is this the fight where a band of bodybuilders in speedos faced the persian supermutants?

 

[Kyriakos]

Νominally yes, but Cavafy always uses greek history to present an allegory about introverted people/writers/himself.

Eg also here:

Trojans


These attempts of ours, of those who are struck by disaster,

these attempts of ours are like those of the Trojans.

We achieve a little, here and there; we rise a little;

and immediately start possessing courage and good hopes.


And yet always something comes about and stops us.

Achilles comes to the moat in front of us

and terrifies us with his screams.


These attempts of ours are like those of the Trojans.

We think that through decision and boldness

we will alter the heavy reproaches of fate,

and thus we stand outside so as to fight.


But when the crucial moment arrives,

our boldness and decisiveness disappear;

our soul is convulsed, paralyzes;

and we run around the walls

seeking to save ourselves by fleeing.


But our fall is certain. Up

on the walls, the mourning already commenced.

They cry due to remembering our days, and because of our feelings.

Bitterly do Priam and Hecuba cry for us.

 

[Zkribbler]

Is this the fight where a band of bodybuilders in speedos faced the persian supermutants?

Only in Hollywood. Historically, the Spartans were heavy infantry: heavily armored, fighting shoulder to shoulder. They were not, not, NOT scantily-clad ballet dancers.

 

[Broken_Erika]

Bah! 300 was crap, if you want a real historically accurate documentary about Sparta, watch this:
'

 

[Bugfatty300]

I always wondered why Thermopylae got the Hollywood treatment but we've never gotten a proper movie about the Trojan Horse. There's so much dramatic potential. All those muscly bearded guys rubbing up against each other, in all sorts of contorted compromising positions, stripped naked to stay cool. The movie would practically write itself. There's so many great potential movies from Greek history.

 

[EgonSpengler]

I couldn't finish 300. Thermopylae is a good story, though, and deserves a real movie. I wonder if a single movie could include the battles of Thermopylae and Salamis and still do them justice. Maybe one of the streaming services could do a series.

 

[Zkribbler]

I couldn't finish 300.

Lucky you. 300 got worse as it went on. I suffered all the way to the end.

I wonder if a single movie could include the battles of Thermopylae and Salamis and still do them justice. Maybe one of the streaming services could do a series.

Structurally, it would be tricky. Spartans in a land battle at Thermopylae; Athenians in a sea battle at Salamis. Who would be the main character?

 

[Lexicus]

Structurally, it would be tricky. Spartans in a land battle at Thermopylae; Athenians in a sea battle at Salamis. Who would be the main character?

If someone wanted to be really cool with it, they could make the main characters Persians and tell the story from the Persian PoV.

 

[Peuri]

Only in Hollywood. Historically, the Spartans were heavy infantry: heavily armored, fighting shoulder to shoulder. They were not, not, NOT scantily-clad ballet dancers.

I jest.

I couldn't finish 300. Thermopylae is a good story, though, and deserves a real movie. I wonder if a single movie could include the battles of Thermopylae and Salamis and still do them justice. Maybe one of the streaming services could do a series.

Yes, it's a great story of how a totalitarian militaristic society on the fringes of contemporary civilization, where the whole purpose of the ruling class of spartiates was to perpetuate the land theft, enslavement and genocide of the helots, to concentrate power on one the ruling class of spartiates and to exclude the perioeci from political rights, did not fall directly under the most progressive state of the time where things like slavery were shunned upon and religious freedom and local autonomy was valued, but ultimately did fall under the influence of the Persian empire anyway trough golden handshakes. It's also a great story on how western society for the next 2000 years was duped by Herodotos into thinking that the persians were the greater evil of the two. Yes, very uplifting.

Lucky you. 300 got worse as it went on. I suffered all the way to the end.

It's not supposed to be an accurate historical portrayal of the events, obviously. I think the demonization of the persians and the deification of the spartiates in the movie highlights the hypocricity of the whole story being portrayed as some great event where western enlightenment values were saved from barbarian hordes. It was a great movie. Also, speedos. Who doesn't like speedos.

If someone wanted to be really cool with it, they could make the main characters Persians and tell the story from the Persian PoV.

I'd pay money to see that.

All those muscly bearded guys rubbing up against each other, in all sorts of contorted compromising positions, stripped naked to stay cool.

That sounds very ancient greek indeed.

 

[Lexicus]

I'd pay money to see that.

https://www.amazon.com/Persian-Fire-First-Empire-Battle/dp/0307279480

This book gave me the idea. Part of the tagline on Amazon:

In the fifth century B.C., a global superpower was determined to bring truth and order to what it regarded as two terrorist states. The superpower was Persia, incomparably rich in ambition, gold, and men. The terrorist states were Athens and Sparta, eccentric cities in a poor and mountainous backwater: Greece.

 

[Kyriakos]

^This deserves to be a classic exactly as much as it will indeed become one

 

[Yeekim]

Yes, it's a great story of how a totalitarian militaristic society on the fringes of contemporary civilization, where the whole purpose of the ruling class of spartiates was to perpetuate the land theft, enslavement and genocide of the helots, to concentrate power on one the ruling class of spartiates and to exclude the perioeci from political rights, did not fall directly under the most progressive state of the time where things like slavery were shunned upon and religious freedom and local autonomy was valued, but ultimately did fall under the influence of the Persian empire anyway trough golden handshakes. It's also a great story on how western society for the next 2000 years was duped by Herodotos into thinking that the persians were the greater evil of the two. Yes, very uplifting.
.

As much as this made me grin, I believe similarities between Persian and Spartan societies were on the whole a lot larger than differences.
Let's not swap one lopsided narrative with another, mkay?

 

[Lexicus]

Let's not swap one lopsided narrative with another, mkay?

I think he is making a joke about contemporary apologists of imperialism, but I could be misreading.

 

[Zkribbler]

The terrorist states were Athens and Sparta, eccentric cities in a poor and mountainous backwater: Greece.

OK, the Athenians aided some Persians rebels. I get that. But Sparta didn't do nottin. Nor did any of those other Greek city-states Persia rolled over on its way to Athens. Nope, Persians were definitely the bad guys.

 

[Lexicus]

The Persians were bringing civilization to backwards fanatics on the edge of the civilized world

 

[Zkribbler]

The Persians were bringing civilization to backwards fanatics on the edge of the civilized world

If by "civilization," you mean "fascistic monarchy," and
if by "backwards fanatics," you mean "inventors of demokratia and philosophy,"
then okay.

BTW: Having a Persian central character won't work in a movie because the Persians lose. Audiences of war movies hate that.

 

[Lexicus]

If by "civilization," you mean "fascistic monarchy," and
if by "backwards fanatics," you mean "inventors of demokratia and philosophy,"

Irony being that the Actual Fascists explicitly wanted to recreate the military society of Sparta, right down to the whole helot thing as @Peuri accurately pointed out earlier. Also, to say that the ancient Greeks "invented" philosophy is nothing but chauvinistic nonsense. And as their 'demokratia' was founded on the exclusion of slaves, women, and metics, I don't think it's much to brag about.

BTW: Having a Persian central character won't work in a movie because the Persians lose. Audiences of war movies hate that.

Oh, come on, this doesn't even pass the smell test. There have been any number of successful American war films about the Vietnam War, for example. Or the Iraq War.

 

[FriendlyFire]

I couldn't finish 300. Thermopylae is a good story, though, and deserves a real movie. I wonder if a single movie could include the battles of Thermopylae and Salamis and still do them justice. Maybe one of the streaming services could do a series.

A movie based on a comic book based on the redacted tales of the spartans
Just take it as an action super hero movie and dont over think things.

Just dont get started on the BBC series, our Greek friend got triggered because they used black actors