Things that aren't in the manual...

[netgeist]

....or at least I can't find them!

I keep seeing references to 'preferred' and 'shunned' governments in the various strategy articles about the civiclizations in Civ3. I can't find reference to these in the manual...could someone tell me the effects of choosing preferred or shunned governments?

Also, the manual frequently shows that we can select the percentage of water when starting a new game. While I can set all the other settings (continent type, age of world, etc), my screen layout looks nothing like the manual and I cannot change the percentage of water.

Could someone let me know what's going on with these two things so I don't have to read the manual for the 5th time?!?

Thanks!

- netgeist

 

[Bamspeedy]

The percentage of water is a little different that what shows in the manual. You can select the water percentage (60%-80%), but it is in a different format. It doesn't say the %, but you can kinda tell by the amount of land in the picture. In the manual it shows from left to right:
80%water pangea
80% water continents
80% water islands
70% water pangea
70% water continents
etc. etc.

But it really is:
Pangea 80% water
Pangea 70% water
Pangea 60% water
Continents 80% water
Continents 70% water
etc., etc.

Preferred government just has to do with how the AI uses that civ. If their preferred government is Republic, they will strive to get into that government and stay there. Shunned government means they will avoid that government whenever possible. It sometimes seems like the AI will treat you better if you are in the same government as their preferred government and worse if in their shunned government.

 

[Cantankerous]

netgeist,

The AI civ's shunned and preferred governments can only be seen in the editor. There is nothing in the game (or the manual) that lists what each shunned/preferred government is.

 

[Sim_One]

netgeist, just because a civ shuns a certain gov't doesn't mean it won't use it. Russia, which is suppose to shun Democracy and prefer Communism, would switch to Democracy as soon as it gets the tech and stay in Democracy even when Communism has been acquired, so long as Russia is not at war. What is worse, if you are in Democracy, Russia will hate you for it even though it's in Democracy as well.

In my experience, the AI loves Republic and Democracy and seldom chooses Monarchy and Communism unless when at war.

 

[WillJ]

Originally posted by Bamspeedy
Preferred government just has to do with how the AI uses that civ. If their preferred government is Republic, they will strive to get into that government and stay there. Shunned government means they will avoid that government whenever possible. It sometimes seems like the AI will treat you better if you are in the same government as their preferred government and worse if in their shunned government.

I think your second point is correct, but I don't think your first one is. All of the AI's seem to always have the same gov. pattern: They go for republic, then democracy, and if they get drained into a heavy war they might switch to communism, or monarchy if they don't have communism yet. Their prefered/shunned gov. doesn't seem to have much effect on what govs they go for, at least not in my games, and same with other people at CFC that I've heard before. However, even though I've never noticed it myself, many people say that the AI will treat you better if you are in their prefered gov, and worse if you're in their shunned gov.

And Cantankerous is right about it only being in the editor.

EDIT: I guess Sim One beat me to what I was saying.

 

[cgannon64]

Don't read the manual. If I had a nickel for every minor game tweak that isn't written in there...

CG

 

[Bamspeedy]

From the editor help:

 

[cgannon64]

I wonder, if a civs shunned government is Republic, and it starts in Republic, and only knows Despostism as its other government, will it switch from Republic to Despotism?

CG

 

[Cantankerous]

What about all the civs whose "shunned" government type is Democracy that immediately switch to Democracy as soon as it is available?

I don't want AI civs to stay at Despotism (because that would reduce competitiveness), but how is that explained I wonder?

 

[Sim_One]

netgeist, Bamspeedy posted a helpful picture however ignore the editor's definitions of Shunned and Preferred Gov'ts, because they simply aren't accurate!!! Yes the AI will make the switch from Despotism to Monarchy the instant it gets the tech, however it will switch from Monarchy to Republic the instant it gets that tech, unless when at war. Other than getting out of Despotism as quickly as possible, the Preferred/Shunned Gov't thing has absolutely no effects on AI preferences for governments.

"The civilization will avoid this governement at all costs"...pfft the Russians eagerly switch to Democracy the second they get the tech.

IMO this is one of the great flaws of Civ3. It is SO unrealistic to see a everyone at Republic in 0 AD and a line of Democracies in 1600 AD.

 

[Yzman]

The problem is though that, you wouldnt want the civs in the other governments, they cripple them too much. There needs to be a way to make all governments have a useful part about them, so you could be in any one of them and it still be ok, yet have certain benefits in more advance governments.

 

[Bamspeedy]

I don't know Cantankerous and Sim_One, this is really weird. In my game with 30 civs, all of them have the Monarchy and Republic techs. Some civs that prefer Monarchy and are at war, are in republic. Other civs that prefer Republic, and are not at war are in Monarchy.

Japan, Persia, and Korea prefer Monarchy and shun Republic, but are all in Republic.

I'm thinking there are a number of formulas to figure out which government a civ should be in, ideally the best government for how the civ is set up so it operates the best for it's particular situation (of course, the program doesn't realize how bad communism is and that is why the AI self-destructs late in the game). Obviously favoring Republic or democracy when at peace or before WW hits real hard, Monarchy or Communism while at war. Then what government they prefer or shun plays a small part in the equation somewhere. Maybe some of these civs don't have enough happiness that they need the MP, or have too many units that they need the free unit support and that is why some of these peaceful civs are in monarchy?

 

[Catt]

@Bamspeedy -- I can't remember where I saw it (here or Apolyton) but unless I'm imagining things, a Firaxian posted that the preferred and shunned governements operated solely to influence AI attitudes -- i.e., if you approach Mao in a democracy, his attitude towards you will be slightly less positive becuase you have chosen to deny your people the wonders of Communism (even if Mao reigns over a democracy!).

The editor help is just flat out wrong -- it has no influence on an AI's choice of its own government -- you will frequently see "communist" governements using democracy and vice versa. Also, think how unbalancing it would be if the flags actually influenced own-government choice (some civs' preferred government is Despotism! )

 

[netgeist]

Wow...thanks guys. I definately think the shunned government does effect a country's disposition towards me. I brought the Vikings into democracy last night, and all of the sudden Czarina Catherine was annoyed with me and I couldn't figure out why. Your answers explain it!

It's OK that she's annoyed with me. I plan on blowing her piddly little country of the map!

- netgeist

 

[cymru_man]

Originally posted by Yzman
The problem is though that, you wouldnt want the civs in the other governments, they cripple them too much. There needs to be a way to make all governments have a useful part about them, so you could be in any one of them and it still be ok, yet have certain benefits in more advance governments.

Are you trying to say you don't want the AI's in monarchy or communism b/c they would be crippled b/c of the way the AI is set up?

Or are you trying to say that Monarchy and Communism are just not competitive governments to be in?

If the second point then I shall have nothing to do with you. I very rarely become a democracy or republic, but i have no trouble staying competitive techwise on Monarch, and I'm currently trying Emperor.

Or have I just completely misunderstood you?

 

[cgannon64]

Originally posted by cymru_man

Or have I just completely misunderstood you?

You must admit, if you are in Despotism or Communism, and the rest of the world is a Democracy, you WILL start to fall behind. Its a fact, the rest of the world will just outresearch you easily.

CG

 

[cymru_man]

Don't generalise. It depends entirely on your situation. It depends on your relationship with the AIs, the size of your empire compared to everyone else, whether you can freely support your army, your science rate, who's at war with who, which nations are more advanced.

What I will say is that Communism probably suits me more as I tend to have a large standing army and multiple units in one city. I can't handle the lack of military police and the support in a Democracy. However because I am a militaristic expansionist I am usually large through conquests and expansion and so I can make up for the commerce bonus received under a representative govt.

Now I will generalise and say people like me do better under a communism/monarchy, and peaceful builders do better under republic/democracy.