This game discriminates against Atheists!

[ParkCungHee]

WWII - I don't think anyone can argue that there were more politically oriented deaths in the camps than there were jews, gypsies and homosexuals (and on this note, I refuse to accept any argument that says the murder of homosexuals can be ANYTHING other than religiously based. if it is an abomination, it must be an abomination against SOMETHING).

And you do realise that the killing of Jews in the holocaust had nothing to do with religion. It wasn't a matter of renouncing your faith or some such thing, it was a matter of Genetics. As for your position that the murder of Homosexuals cannot be anything other then religiously based, refusing to acknowledge an opponents position is not in itself an argument. The Nazis openly acknowledged that their killings had nothing to do with religion, so your basicly saying "That doesn't fit my world view, so it doesn't count". But if you need it to be an abomination against something, you could make a much better case that it was an abomination against "the ideal aryan".

 

[Wodan]

And you do realise that the killing of Jews in the holocaust had nothing to do with religion. It wasn't a matter of renouncing your faith or some such thing, it was a matter of Genetics. As for your position that the murder of Homosexuals cannot be anything other then religiously based, refusing to acknowledge an opponents position is not in itself an argument. The Nazis openly acknowledged that their killings had nothing to do with religion, so your basicly saying "That doesn't fit my world view, so it doesn't count". But if you need it to be an abomination against something, you could make a much better case that it was an abomination against "the ideal aryan".

Whew. what do you say to that?

Esp. to someone whose # posts = 1? Not that that means they don't have something serious to say. Just that, well, if I wanted to log on and make some outrageous statement, that's the way.

Wodan

 

[Dionysius]

and on this note, I refuse to accept any argument that says the murder of homosexuals can be ANYTHING other than religiously based. if it is an abomination, it must be an abomination against SOMETHING*.

*nature, maybe? in that it is considered unnatural and in fairness, it is.
however i myself have no problem with it.

 

[romelus]

All important? I disagree... there are many more important questions. Such as, where are we going?

Wodan

if you know the purpose, you know the destination

 

[ParkCungHee]

Whew. what do you say to that?

Esp. to someone whose # posts = 1? Not that that means they don't have something serious to say. Just that, well, if I wanted to log on and make some outrageous statement, that's the way.

Wodan

Whats so outrageous about it? I'm not defending what the Nazis did, I'm just making certain people understood what and why they did it, and being a good christian was very low on Heinrich Himmler's list of reasons to do things. In fact the very Idea that one could escape the Nazis by being a non-practicing Jew is outrageous.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

yeah, PCH is right. Renouncing Judaism, and converting to Christianity or becoming an atheist or whatever, wouldn't help you against the Nazis (unless you managed to pretend not to be Jewish). Their hatred of Jews was entirely ethnic and cultural, not religious at all, and their hatred of homosexuals was the same. Even persecution of Jehovah's Witnesses wasn't completely religious - they objected to the JW policy of distrusting all governments and not being nationalistic, because a good Aryan would do no such thing.

 

[tatterdemalion]

Sure. Give the game an atheist science bonus. But restrict their choice of government to despotism and reduce their birthrates to zero.

BTW, seems to me that it should be *impossible* for a true atheist to be offended by religion. From an irreligious perspective, all religions have the moral and intellectual relevance of Aesop's fables. Why get yourself worked up over something that has the factual basis of a children's fantasy?

 

[Kieran]

Why not go one step further and have Satanism included in the game too

 

[GoodSarmatian]

And you do realise that the killing of Jews in the holocaust had nothing to do with religion. It wasn't a matter of renouncing your faith or some such thing, it was a matter of Genetics. As for your position that the murder of Homosexuals cannot be anything other then religiously based, refusing to acknowledge an opponents position is not in itself an argument. The Nazis openly acknowledged that their killings had nothing to do with religion, so your basicly saying "That doesn't fit my world view, so it doesn't count". But if you need it to be an abomination against something, you could make a much better case that it was an abomination against "the ideal aryan".

Antisemitism was widespread in Europe, thanks to this whole "you killed Jesus" thing. It was not invented by the Nazis.
The Nazi's rise to power was promoted by Antisemitism.

 

[lateralis]

yeah, PCH is right. Renouncing Judaism, and converting to Christianity or becoming an atheist or whatever, wouldn't help you against the Nazis (unless you managed to pretend not to be Jewish). Their hatred of Jews was entirely ethnic and cultural, not religious at all, and their hatred of homosexuals was the same. Even persecution of Jehovah's Witnesses wasn't completely religious - they objected to the JW policy of distrusting all governments and not being nationalistic, because a good Aryan would do no such thing.

I will make as few presumptions about my fellow posters as possible in this response, but I think it only fair that you know exactly where I am coming from in this response:

I may be an atheist now, but I was raised jewish.
I had family live through or, (more often) fail to live through the holocaust.
I've been to the camps.
what's the point? the point is, I WAS indoctrinated from a very early age about the holocaust. I then decided to look into it myself from a position of intellectual curiosity after having moved beyond my religious upbringing at around 19.
not that it neccessarily matters, but I'm almost 30 (holy **** really? )
now that that is out of the way a couple things:

1) to say that the nazi objection to jews was "entirely ethnic and cultural, not religious at all" is like saying "my objection to getting splashed has nothing to do with being wet, I just like being dry." Most informed people who know anything about world religion will tell you that you cannot separate judaism the religion from judaism the culture and the ethnicity. It is for this VERY reason that jews who might have been 10 generations german, 5 of which no one in the family ever set foot in a temple were not safe from the nazi genocide.

2) if we take the WORD religion out of the discussion and instead focus on belief structure we begin to approach the point: fanatical belief systems, when institutionalized are dangerous. I would question the reasoning skills of anyone who thinks that nazism was not closer to a religion than a political system. Right wrong or indifferent, you cannot mobilize an entire country to either assist in mass murder or look the other way without tapping into a certain type of fundamentalism. call it the "religion of national socialism" if you like. Hitler called it the final solution. If you want a more recent example, it's right in front of you. If I, an atheist, was on one of the 9/11 planes would the hijackers have just let me off because I'm not christian? of course not. I'm still part of the "western infidel" as far as they are concerned because american culture IS the religion they are fighting against.

3) just because your "group" is not "religious" in name (aryan), if you single out other based on their religion, whether by genetic history (jews) or currently held beliefs (jehovah's witnesses) you ARE engaged in a religious war. period. arguing that converting wouldn't change your standing merely shows that the nazi's were a special, more unwavering and steadfast kind of crazy, not that they are somehow now exempt from being the executors of religious persecution.

I do understand that the lines blur a bit when you start talking about jingoistic nationalism but we ARE talking about religious conflict here, albeit in a slightly different guise. and I know some people would argue that the war on terror is not a religious conflict. those people would be wrong in exactly the same way. Neither the fact that the aryan nation wasn't a "religious" group per se, nor that "americans" aren't does not change the fact that RELIGION is at the very core of these conflicts.

 

[ParkCungHee]

It is for this VERY reason that jews who might have been 10 generations german, 5 of which no one in the family ever set foot in a temple were not safe from the nazi genocide.

And its for that very reason that it was not religiously, but instead was racially motivated. I hope you don't mind if I use you in the example, I'm sorry but your the most ready example. You have described yourself as an Aethiest, I'm assuming because of that on the census you fill out "aethiest" as your religion. However the Nazis did not care about this.

For a seperate example, lets use another religion directly tied to the people that follow it: Shintaoism. Shintaoism is an inherently Japanese religion, and is in many ways a spiritiual form of Japanese history. Now lets take a wackjob extremist nut group called the Izans (Spelling words backwards is fun), who then go about trying to kill every Japanese person they can find, regardless of whether they actually practice shintao. We would not describe the Izans as Anti-Shintao but anti-Japanese. Likewise the Nazis were not anti-Judaism, but were anti-semitic. Thats what made it so terrible, thats what seperates Hitler from Torquemada, thats what made him the worst monster in history, because it didn't matter if you even followed the religion to him, as long as you had some supposed genetic link.

My point is not that the Nazis were not anti-semitic but that they were a new kind of anti-semitic, there complaint was not rooted in christianity, indeed Himmler, Hitler and Borman all loathed it because it was founded by Jews. It was rooted in a new racial and largely secular hatred. Aethiests (Goebells), Pagans (Himmler), Christians (Hans Frank) and agnotists (Goring) all played a key role in the holocaust,

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

And anyway, if you define religion as "any strongly held ideology" then of course you can say that religion causes more wars, as now nationalism and communism and fascism et al are religions. But then your statement is meaningless.

 

[viz]

For what it's worth lateralis, I mostly agree with you.

Tapping in on peoples thoughts in a way that keeps them 'eager' and 'obedient' as religions do is an incredibly powerful and dangerous tool. Right at the core all religions are intolerent of other religions, even if its followers like to pretend otherwise, they still go to bed at night thinking 'I'm ok, God is great, God will save me, blah blah', and yet all religious followers around the globe are doing the exact same thing day in day out but in direct opposition to their counterparts, creating divisions between us fellow humans instead of uniting us.

We atheists can only sit in the midst of war after war until everyone else realise that religion is fundimentally a bad thing for coexistence of humanity.

PS: The Jews were persecuted by the nazis both racially and religiously.

 

[Chose]

i dont know if this has been brought up but to be an atheists you need "faith", just like i cant prove there is a God an atheists cant Prove the earth was made by a big bang, or whatever you believe (somthing was ALWAYS here a rock or a God, your choice). Both takes "faith' to believe, so theism is Not a science it is a religion

 

[AvianAvenger]

Right at the core all religions are intolerent of other religions, even if its followers like to pretend otherwise, they still go to bed at night thinking 'I'm ok, God is great, God will save me, blah blah', and yet all religious followers around the globe are doing the exact same thing day in day out but in direct opposition to their counterparts, creating divisions between us fellow humans instead of uniting us.

We atheists can only sit in the midst of war after war until everyone else realise that religion is fundimentally a bad thing for coexistence of humanity.

Oh, yes thats right only a athiest can be innocent and tolerant...

Nice way to make a complete arse of yourself, by showing everyone just how intolerent, uncaring and ignorant you are of other people's beliefs, ideas and ideals. I have a website for you www.youfail.org , enjoy.

Side Note: Whoa, this threads still going strong.

 

[Mr.Domino]

My two cents on a bunch of arguments in this thread I disagreed with.

-WW 1 killed 30+ million people. WW 2 killed 60+ million people. These numbers, historically are huge. Europe in 1700 barely had what, 100 million? It seems like these secular wars which you could blame on nationalism or fascism killed far more than the religous wars in the dark ages or beyond.

-Buddhism is such a broad, flexible religon I wouldn't say it was atheist or not. Certainly some branches are avowedly anti-gods. But others assimilated local traditions and do have gods, heavens, ect. Confucism and Taoism also both arguably deify the way of heaven (but not personify it) and believe in a "higher power" to a degree.

-The ancient Chinese, Greeks, and Romans, all had strict moral/social codes they abided even if they didnt believe in an well though out afterlife or a perfect God. A "good" greek still getts a pretty cruddy (and vague) afterlife, but for a bunch of reasons still would recoil at the idea of showing cowardice in battle ect. Monotheism or religion isnt required to have a moral code, nihilism and moral relativism of course are atheistic but that dosent necessarily mean all atheism leads to nihilism or moral relativism.

-Nazism anti-semitism had a bunch of causes. But several were arguably modern phenemona. The nazis were probably more angry at the jews allegedly stabbing the kaiser and germany in the back in ww1 than they were that they supposedly stabbed jesus in the back. Their extreme nationalism probably led them to scapegoat them and refuse that their countries problems could have been self inflicted. Modern ideas like social darwinism also contributed.

-As a former philosophy major I have to argue against romelus's idea science will eventually explain all. I can't imagine a guy in a lab coat solving the mind/body problem via an experiment, or coming up with a formula for Justice. Science deals with empirical physical stuff, philosophy/religon with abstractions and metaphysicals. Problems like the search for meaning are metaphysical in nature. Of course, a philosopher or theologian isnt going to solve these problems decisively either....

 

[Diamond621]

i dont know if this has been brought up but to be an atheists you need "faith", just like i cant prove there is a God an atheists cant Prove the earth was made by a big bang, or whatever you believe (somthing was ALWAYS here a rock or a God, your choice). Both takes "faith' to believe, so theism is Not a science it is a religion

Atheists have nothing to prove - this is the fundamental flaw of this common religious argument above. I have a book sitting next to my bed that was written by pink elephants who lived on Pluto 4,000 years ago. Can you scientifically prove the book's origins to be untrue, given the lack of imaging technology advanced enough to study the physical surface of Pluto? Nope! Therefore, by the consistent application of your argument, we are forced to conclude that the book next to my bed is genuine. In order to support your own reasoning method, nearly all religiously minded people apply scientific principles ad-hoc, through selective observation of embracing science when it supports them and ignoring science when it does not. This is simply not valid reasoning.

In any argument over substance vs. lack of substance, the burden of proof ALWAYS rests on the affirmative position. Just because you cannot prove the origins of the book next to my bed to be false, that does not inherently make them true. Atheists have absolutely nothing to 'prove' to reinforce their position. Given that the 'religious' viewpoint is more commonly rooted in mythology and tradition than in scientific fact, atheists and most rational people typically eschew it. Can we PROVE that the Big Bang was the origin of the universe, or PROVE that evolution is the true means of the emergence of human life on Earth? No - however they are simply the best explanations for these events that science has currently come up with, and so we accept them as true in the absence of a better explanation. Can you come up with a better suggestion for these events that is rooted in logic and reasonable thought instead of rooted in 'faith' and superstition? No? Well that's a damn shame. We go with what we have until we find something better - it is the way of the world .

 

[Datian]

Sorry to interrupt but you can't say that nazi hate of Jews or homosexuals is atheist and has nothing to do with religion. Of course, they claimed themselves to be independent from christianism, but western homophobia is rooted in the religion - ever heard of the "levitique" (spelling in english ?) and saint Paul ?

As for antisemitism, its historical roots are blurred, but it seems that it originated with the Punic Wars, Carthagenians being a semit people. Roman hatred for them extended to all semit people, and the roman christians kept it with them while spreading to the rest of western Europe. Nazi antesemitism didn't appear ex-nihilo, it has just invented new words to define itself. To say it otherwise, to the christian irrationnal "you killed Jesus" moto, they substitued a supposedly more rationnal "you're genetically killing Europe" thing, but the latter came from the former.

Both hates, as well as the image of women as reproductive vessels and nothing else, are part of the western culture, deeply tied to traditionnal christianism. A modern atheist, be it a nazi or a contemporary, can't avoid cultural influence, and modern moral values are linked to christian/jew ones.

 

[AvianAvenger]

@diamond621
Amazeingly you totally missed his point, whether you believe there is a God or whether you believe there is no God. It is still a belief based on your own reasoning which you can not prove to be true or false.

In order to support your own reasoning method, nearly all religiously minded people apply scientific principles ad-hoc, through selective observation of embracing science when it supports them and ignoring science when it does not. This is simply not valid reasoning.

Yes, now dare to tell us nearly all athiest dont do the same. On no, thats right athiest automatically have phds in all scientific methods...

Atheists have nothing to prove - this is the fundamental flaw of this common religious argument above

I've never had a athiest not try and convince me that there is no God, so that statements got to be the biggest load ive shite ive heard all day.

Oh and also, since when did evolution become fact, hmmm?... its a theory based on one mans beliefs, which he couldn't even prove at the time. They dont call it a theory without a reason. Piltdown man anyone?

 

[AfterShafter]

My two cents on a bunch of arguments in this thread I disagreed with.

-WW 1 killed 30+ million people. WW 2 killed 60+ million people. These numbers, historically are huge. Europe in 1700 barely had what, 100 million? It seems like these secular wars which you could blame on nationalism or fascism killed far more than the religous wars in the dark ages or beyond.

So I take it that it's your opinion that, had people had the means during those religious wars, they wouldn't have used machine guns, tanks, bombers, mustard gas, nuclear warheads, etc, and would have rather stuck to swords and bows to keep the death count down? And that the fact that there simply weren't nearly as many people didn't have a great deal to do with the lesser deathcount? Didn't realize religious wars were waged with nerf bats while only in secular wars were the most effective means of killing, at the time, employed.