This game discriminates against Atheists!

[KrikkitTwo]

Rape and Sexual Slavery - "If a man meets a virgin who is not betrothed, and seizes her and lies with her, and they are found, then the man who lay with her shall give to the father of the young woman fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife, because he has violated her; he may not put her away all his days." (Deuteronomy 22:28-29)

That's not sexual slavery that's a punishment for rape..50 shekels and forced marriage that compenstes the Victim (remember women did Very poorly without a husband back then). You could say the Rapist is forced into sexual slavery/long term support/alimony (he may NOT put her away). It may not be the most complete solution, but again this is Laws for running the State, Practicality is an issue.
(Reference Matthew 19 particularly v. 8 Divorce is stated as Immoral but there were laws set up for how it would be done, because of this being a law that must actually be carried out.)

God Orders The Killing...multiple examples

Yeah, what's wrong with killing? murder, yes. But God never takes 'innocent life' because no humans qualify as that with respect to Him [he does not murder, he executes].

As I said, there is TONS more like this in the book, if you read it you would know...

God Is Everywhere Present - "Where shall I go from your Spirit? Or where shall I flee from your presence? If I ascend to heaven, you are there! If I make my bed in Sheol, you are there! If I take the wings of the morning and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea, even there your hand shall lead me, and your right hand shall hold me" (Ps 139:7-10)

God Is Not Everywhere Present - "Then the Lord said, “Because the outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is great and their sin is very grave, I will go down to see whether they have done altogether " (Gen 3:8)

OK this is Obvious figurative language, saying you're going to 'go down there and see what they have done' nowadays may mean picking up the phone.
(as are all the verses talking about the Hands of God, the Eyes of God, His Throne, foot stool, etc.)

Yep, you said it, gods word in final, he knows everything - even though he can't make his mind up and contradicts himself left, right and center. If god is perfect and knows everything why did he create imperfect humans and leave those imperfect humans to record and teach 'his word', full of errors, language translations, anonymous authors and glaring contradictions? He knew this would happen, he knew people would suffer and be killed, he knew people would disobey him, he therefore wanted it to happen. Why does he banish people to hell for ETERNITY after watching them sin for a mere mortals lifetime? Hardy a proportional punishment is it now?

As I said these quotes are throughout the bible, everyone should know about them and they should not be rebuffed or watered down, they mean what they say or they would be worded differently, they spent hundreds of years refining it so you can't just dismiss parts as being 'old' or 'it happened in the past', 'it was ok/the right thing to do then', if you where to ask the pope I'm sure he'll tell you what you can and can't dismiss, it's all still being taught TODAY by fundimentalists across the globe , and there is a 'hell' of a lot more in there (pun intended)

Do you think an all knowing god would be happy to know that people dismiss his word and only take the bits they approve of? That defeats the whole point of religion.

He made people because of the fact that he decided the good from making people outweighed the bad, suffering which he took on himself.

These objections were made and considered and Answered in the Bible... read
Romans 9
or for OT
book of Amos, or Isaiah 45:9

I agree they are often watered down, hidden and ignored, because many who follow God still don't like to admit that he is superior than them (not better like I am better than a two year old, but like I am better than a Civ mod I made.)

Admittedly we only have his say so that it is all for the best (Romans 8:28), but if a perfectly happy immortal is willing to suffer and die for you, that lends some credence to your interests being in mind. Mind you, Descarte's demon is always a Valid hypothesis but its a valid hypothesis as opposed to Anything.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

Still, the idea that a rapist can avoid punishment for his crimes by marrying the victim is pretty creepy. Good thing I don't equate the laws of the Israelites with what God finds moral or immoral . . .

 

[KrikkitTwo]

I agree its very creepy but considering the tradition of 'honor killings' in the middle east it can be considered useful... a few verses before that it actually specifically distinguishes between the concept of rape and consensual sex. And specifically says that the woman should not be punished for it (rape that is, consensual either means either shotgun wedding or a double execution.)

Essentially those all talk about how much 'justice' God plans on delegating. pre-Flood it was all handled personally. after the flood he began delegating (execution of murderers, then Judaic Law, etc. so that life wouldn't be as nasty, brutish and ... well long before the flood) but he is always considered the final appeal, taking care of everyone that slips through the cracks.

 

[Wyz_sub10]

If you are atheist, what would you be thinking about if you were onboard an airplane crashing towards the ground? Would you begin praying to?

I'd reflect on my life, and would be very sad it was coming to an end. I'd probably be very scared, and I'd probably have some regrets (hopefully few). I'd be thinking of the people I was leaving behind - my wife, my son, my family. But I wouldn't be praying to anyone because I don't think there is anyone to hear me.

If my son was with me, I wouldn't be much worried about myself. I'd be concerned with comforting him as best as I could, and I'd probably be thinking how sad it is that he'll be denied so many experiences in life.

 

[Wyz_sub10]

He made people because of the fact that he decided the good from making people outweighed the bad, suffering which he took on himself.

Just a quick comment - suffering taken upon himself is meaningless. He is supposedly a perfect and flawless and eternal being. Suffering is a null concept.

 

[viz]

Kieran, yes there are examples like these in other religions too, christianity just so happens to be the biggest.

Krikkitone, the punishment (if you look at it moraly) is bestowed upon the rape victim, the woman did not consent - she was forced. Money changed hands and the woman (victim) is now the property of her assailant. It's obvious that the woman is not respected or used in any other way but for the mans sexual pleasure. She is a slave and a slave for nothing other than sex.

Hideous.

The words are black and white, trying to gloss over them is not only sacrilegious but misleading to others.

 

[_ATOMEN]

free religion = enables all thing u believe, and it makes u get more science....but atheism is not a religion or a belief i think..lol...it is nothing ... LMAO

 

[AfterShafter]

free religion = enables all thing u believe, and it makes u get more science....but atheism is not a religion or a belief i think..lol...it is nothing ... LMAO

You also get the 10% more science when you have no religion in your civ at all. What's that mean? You do the math

 

[dh_epic]

Oh yeah, the free religion civic! That suggests that there's some merit to non-religious belief, right?

The only thing the game says is that it's impossible to remove a religion once it spreads into a city. While that's clearly historically false, the ability to remove religions would really mess with the game balance.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Kieran, yes there are examples like these in other religions too, christianity just so happens to be the biggest.

Krikkitone, the punishment (if you look at it moraly) is bestowed upon the rape victim, the woman did not consent - she was forced. Money changed hands and the woman (victim) is now the property of her assailant. It's obvious that the woman is not respected or used in any other way but for the mans sexual pleasure. She is a slave and a slave for nothing other than sex.

Hideous.

The words are black and white, trying to gloss over them is not only sacrilegious but misleading to others.

First she was put into an Arranged Marriage, which was not at all uncommon. And at worst that could be characterized as sexual serfdom, He could not leave Her. The fact is the Marriage was a means to make sure that she would be taken care of. The term 'ruined woman' wasn't just a quaint term back then.
The key thing about true property is I can damage/destroy my own property if I choose too, I have no responsibilities To my property. While the whole situation was definitely an oppressive relationship, it would not be categorized as full scale slavery. Any decent Slave is something you can unload.

I'd agree that's Hideous, but there are plenty of Hideous things every government allows because laws are there to maintain order, rather than enforce morality. If God wanted to enforce absolute morality completely, everyone would be sent straight to hell at conception for insubordination to God. (It really would make for a perfect society, no murder, rape, slavery, greed, theft, oppression, etc. except there would be no society)

Just a quick comment - suffering taken upon himself is meaningless. He is supposedly a perfect and flawless and eternal being. Suffering is a null concept.

No that makes it More significant... the suffering was not null. To suffer/die for someone when you actually have the choice of Never suffering/dying is actually an important decision.... like giving up the last Parachute when in a plane.... as opposed to giving up the last parachute when a part of the plane is pinning you so that you Can't jump.



Civ 4 Atheism
Atheism in the game, The inability of a Religion to be removed is an inaccuracy, but that is consistent with the idea that Religion is something you have to put effort into to achieve.

Likewise to get the benefits of Atheism* (Free Religion, Scientific Method) you have to make an investment in tech [Scientific Method itself is a pretty Lousy tech, but it allows a lot of interesting ones.] And it forces you to give up religiously dominated Science (Monasteries)

*Really more like secularism... not so much God doesn't exist but he doesn't matter.

Notably, with all your complaints those are Scientific Benefits.

Consider that the Best you can get without acheiving the "Secularism" techs is Infantry, Cannons, Frigates, and Galleons... The game is clearly biased against Religion assuming that they are all Like the Amish.
(Its particularly biased against Islam showing it as unnecessary in world history)


In any case giving Religions 'Levels of influence' in a city that can rise or fall semi-randomly with player input would be interesting. Semi-randomly because the player needs to get some reward for investment, but to allow it to spread in a more interesting pattern.

 

[viz]

Krikkitone,

The above text refered to a Forced Marriage not an 'Arranged Marriage' as you say. The victim had no choice in the matter, it was 'arranged by god' not her. Forced Marriages are slavery, whatever way you look at it.

http://www.antislavery.org/homepage/news/news3.htm

She was raped then enslaved, is god really just?

I'd agree that's Hideous, but there are plenty of Hideous things every government allows because laws are there to maintain order, rather than enforce morality. If God wanted to enforce absolute morality completely, everyone would be sent straight to hell at conception for insubordination to God. (It really would make for a perfect society, no murder, rape, slavery, greed, theft, oppression, etc. except there would be no society)

So you don't agree that it's hideous because it still happens today? I happen to think it was hideous then and it's hideous now. Your point about 'insubordination to God' suggests that someone who is agnostic by definition (a baby for example) is insubordinate, I find that quite shocking personally, how can a baby with no concept of authority be insubordinate? As for the society you mention, why do you think god wants us to live in a murder, rape, slavery, greed, theft, oppression, fueled society? As mentioned in previous posts, why did a perfect god need to create an imperfect world only to punish everyone from conception to death (and lets not forget that hell is for eternity)?

On another note, why is it that this thread is being poorly 'rated', surely people here don't really dislike the truth... I wonder.

The game does favour religion over none-religion, here's why:

a) Worse relations with other civs, small increase in research and happiness (That's all well and good but see 'b' below).
b) Huge benefits if you found one (or more) religions, potential for bigger research, armies and increased happiness, relations with other civs increases if same religion.
c) The benefits mentioned in b) vastly outweigh the a) 'none-religious' options.

In summary, having a religion gives you much more than not having one. The money generated from founding a religion and spreading it nullifies any of the none-religion benefits.

In a recent prince game I generated over 88,000 Gold in the treasury and +300 GPT with 100% research, mainly by focusing on spreading missionaries after capturing the church of the nativity, I had a huge army and over 70% of the globe where christian (or partially christian) cities and only 2 of the civs were not officially christian (a huge, marathon game with the maximum number of civs). The game was so unbalanced I started helping other civs just for the fun of it by sending them fleets of ships and units. If the AI knew how to use religions properly then the game would be much more challenging, but it doesn't. I also had islam founded so I could possibly have generated a lot more.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

I would say that the justice and love of God isn't invalidated just because counted among the sacred writings of some of those who follow Him are some legal codes that are rather repressive and unfair towards women, but what do I know?

 

[Wyz_sub10]

No that makes it More significant... the suffering was not null. To suffer/die for someone when you actually have the choice of Never suffering/dying is actually an important decision.... like giving up the last Parachute when in a plane.... as opposed to giving up the last parachute when a part of the plane is pinning you so that you Can't jump.

My point is that a perfect, flawless, all-powerful being cannot suffer - by definition this is simply not possible. This is what makes it meaningless.

If you sacrifice your son, he is dead forever. If the J/C god "sacrifices" his son, he raises him to life everlasting. How is that a sacrifice in any way?

 

[Phyr_Negator]

Well, in multiplayer game if you have no religion you are almost every time behind your opponent - Freedom Of Religion comes so late that players with religion get insane bonuses.
To think of it -
you got:
+10% sci every city.
+1 happy for each rel AND your opponents can see what is happening in that city.
They got:
+25 building production.
or
+2 exp each unit.
or
+100% GP birth rate
well, you get the point - if you have no religion in multiplayer - you are always loosing if you fail to compensate your atheistic ways with skill.
Oh, and bythe way - you loose whole lot of benefits from wonders and get one useless spec - Prophet.
Damn I always wonder - why firaxis is so bad with Paganism(wich I respect), mentioning it's influence over world -_-. Romans, Inca, Aztec etc. was pagan and I doubt someone can argue their influence.
Why not implement upcoming bonuses for basic civics, like after reaching tech A paganism get some bonus to get in line with other civics, stripping it of "worthless civic" role.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Game benefits to religion... religion in the game comes at a Cost, so therefore it comes with benefits. I haven't heard about how the game terribly discriminates against Anarchists... you get massive benefits out of running non default civics. (or for that matter anti-Monarchists...Monarchs are the only real government for at least 1/3 of the game)

The fact is religion is an Early acheivement in the game, Atheism (Liberalism, Scientific Method..Communism for non-game sense) is a Late Achievement in the game, that brings its own benefits. (ie Broadway, Space Race, UN...none of which is possible without giving up some of the benefits of religion)

Yes the AI doesn't know how to use it... the AI doesn't know how to use 2/3 of the game.

as dh_epic says the game is biased against all viewpoints. I assume you've read the Marxist review? It was connected to a thread here a while back, they note how appropriate it is that religion is the opiate of the masses, but criticize (and I agree with them here) the general lack of 'the people' as a factor in history.






As for other things... Hideous things are allowed by all temporal governments, even the temporal ones set up by God. Were he trully building a perfect, moral society there he would not have allowed them to divorce and proscribed stoning for lust and hatred rather than just adultery and murder..as he himself says later. The fact is that was apparently the most reasonable solution. Like the principle of temporal government introduced in the first place. God apparently knew very well that a utopian government of humans would not be possible, and so never tried to set one up.
[also I'd assume Arranged marriages are generally understood to be forced by people other than those doing the marrying, it appears there may be an out, in Exodus 22:16, the father can absolutely refuse and then simply a larger fine is paid...you'd probably have to check with those who study that more to tell how well that applies in what situation, as the words there would be considered legal terms, and legal English can be misunderstood by English non-lawyers.]

Complete justice only gets done in eternity, the infant is self absorbed [you could get some argument on that bit in general, but if you bumb it up to a 10 year old, then those arguments clear up.] Any person by that age is definitely not as they 'should be' and so will therefore either be fixed or destroyed.


As for the perfect being being unable to suffer... that gets into whether the ability to suffer is a flaw and I could easily disagree (or maintain that there were 'flaws' like that taken on in the incarnation)

As for there being no Sacrifice... You Might be able to argue that if Christ were put to sleep like an animal is at the vet, that might no entail sacrifice [having never died I can't say the existential type sufferring from that, especially to God]. But to argue undergoing a Roman Crucifixion that you don't have to doesn't entail sacrifice is an insult to one of the classic civilizations.

 

[Datian]

Funny how no one yet has used the joker card : Job.

Usually, when confronted with the incoherences of the so-called divine message, christians pull up the Job story as the answer to everything : "oh you led a virtous life and even rescued every puppy, but your family died in a freak accident ? Don't worry, your faith is just being tested" - "well half of the world is starving and the other half is at war, but it's ok, the faith of god's children is just being tested" - "the bible is inconsistend and contradicts itself every sentence, but still you have to believe in this fuzzy stuff, it's your faith that is tested, not your brain" - "bad guys, bullies at school, hitler and donald rumsfled are part of the creation too, they're helpful in fact, they test your faith" - ad lib

 

[DigitalBoy]

The game does favour religion over none-religion, here's why:

a) Worse relations with other civs, small increase in research and happiness (That's all well and good but see 'b' below).
b) Huge benefits if you found one (or more) religions, potential for bigger research, armies and increased happiness, relations with other civs increases if same religion.
c) The benefits mentioned in b) vastly outweigh the a) 'none-religious' options.

In summary, having a religion gives you much more than not having one. The money generated from founding a religion and spreading it nullifies any of the none-religion benefits.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=182768

Having a religion gives benefits over not having one for the simple reason that founding and spreading religion has costs, while choosing not to found/spread religion has no cost other than forgoing the benefits you're missing out on. It's just for the sake of gameplay. The only "fair" way to handle atheism is to make it its own "religion."

 

[Phyr_Negator]

Having a religion gives benefits over not having one for the simple reason that founding and spreading religion has costs, while choosing not to found/spread religion has no cost other than forgoing the benefits you're missing out on. It's just for the sake of gameplay. The only "fair" way to handle atheism is to make it its own "religion."

What cost? 1 turn of anarchy? Or maybe cost of building relig structures? or maybe cost of religion technologies research? oops, I forgot - that techs are vital even for non-religion player.
Yea yea, really funny.
It is possible to make religion in line with atheism - give it DISADVANTAGES.
Thar "cost of religion" could be understandable if it will be reasonable and logical, not something for almost nothing.

 

[ilovecurrry]

I am a christian, i follow God's word, but I think "my way is not the only way. Who knows, maybe im right, maybe im wrong, maybe Christianity is just one of several paths God will allow"
I dont push my religion on others or anything.
but thats beside the point.
As many others said, Free Religion is basically no religion + benifits

 

[KrikkitTwo]

There is of course also the cost of Crusades/Jihads/etc.


In any case one would think atheists would agree that religion is a simple tool of state oppression (like the Theaters, Colusseums, King's Troops, Luxury Trinkets and other things used to distract the populace from their sisters and brothers being slaughtered either in battle or by your hand) If you ever actually think about it Civ is denigrating, not to atheists but to Humans. They are merely instruments of yours.