I don't think warriors should get a bonus to city defense. in the rest of the game the warrior line tends to do worse defending than archers and I think that the addition of a 2/4 unit at the beginning of the game would be prudent. There needs to be a real reason overall for people to choose the different lines if you read the posts above and on the other thread, the general idea is to make each line worth using.
this is my thoughts on techs
- Thread starter daladinn
- Start date
I don't think warriors should get a bonus to city defense. in the rest of the game the warrior line tends to do worse defending than archers and I think that the addition of a 2/4 unit at the beginning of the game would be prudent. There needs to be a real reason overall for people to choose the different lines if you read the posts above and on the other thread, the general idea is to make each line worth using.
Pyr0mancer
Prince
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Without a bonus to city defense, there's too much potential for AIs being wiped out by barbs, notably Lizardmen and Skeletons, or being rushed.
Also, there ISN'T a 'warrior line'. Warriors can be upgraded to either Archers or Axemen. It makes sense from a flavor perspective too. Warriors are basically untrained, with the simplest possible weapons. Those who happen to be more proficient fighters can receive further training in either bows or blades.
I do agree that the Archery line needs strengthening, but I don't think introducing another unit at the beginning of the game is the way to do it. The main problem, in my opinion, is the fact that the research path offers few side benefits, while the melee research path unlocks several essential abilities. The units themselves are reasonably competitive, with the only real shortcoming being their relative lack of offensive ability. Adding a few first strikes could address this and would fit flavor-wise as well.
My comments regarding the slingers and javelin throwers is just that introducing an earlier archery-type unit could cause flavor/art conflicts.
Ringtailed
Anthropomorphic Lemur
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The AI won't be wiped if you let them build weaker archery units from the beginning. The AI happens to be good at building archers. It also keeps them from being wiped out by players with combat3/shock2 warriors.
Other suggestions would be to move existing archers up to an earlier tech, or make shock II have a later tech requirement (like... iron working).
I like most of the ideas from the original post. Metal arrowheads for archers and weapon upgrades that cost gold make sense. [I'd still like to see warriors lose the ability to use bronze, even with a cost.]
rocklikeafool
Warmaster
That I definitely agree with. Plus, historically (and therefore since most mods have a basic historical basis on humanity, ya know, with the ages always startin at ancient), no one had archers at the same time they had rock-totin and club-wieldin warriors.
Ringtailed
Anthropomorphic Lemur
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FFH doesn't start in ancient, it starts in Erebus's Age of Rebirth. This isn't the dawn of time, it's the end of the age of ice.
Historically you may be right, but even back when we had club toting cavemen, they still knew how to throw rocks. and there is evidence that prehistoric man threw spears.
the point of what i was trying to do here is to bust up the unit side of the techs.
pulling the units into one line and keeping the industrial and strategy in their own lines helps keep a bit of balance between the lines and the units.
i was pushing for archers to be better trained and for melee to be faster produced (hence the building bonuses).
pulling the units into one line and keeping the industrial and strategy in their own lines helps keep a bit of balance between the lines and the units.
i was pushing for archers to be better trained and for melee to be faster produced (hence the building bonuses).
rocklikeafool
Warmaster
Yes, that is true. But it is basically the same as ancient. It's a time when all peoples have reverted back to the basics. It's the most basic weapons, tools, and knowledge. Everythin is comparable to the RL ancient times, where humanity was jus beginnin and jus buildin cities and nations. Yes, it is not the same, but it is very comparable.
rocklikeafool
Warmaster
Definitely true, but think bout this. Wat's easier to make? Two or three units that are very specific? Or one that covers all bases? Sides, as a rule, you will only use the warrior unit for a short time. Most players try to get to Axemen (or any UUs that replace Axemen) as quickly as possible. So, there's (imho) very little reason to make more than one unit to represent the most basic military armorments (no armor, in this case) and weapons (sticks, clubs, and stones as weps).
It's easiest and makes the most sense, from a moddin perspective, to jus make one unit, namely the basic warrior. Yes, it'd be nice to get a unit that throws spears or rocks, but it's also impractical as you'd have to put it somewhere on the tech tree. Where would you put it?
That is kind of my point we shouldn't be forced down a specific line I would like to see a reason to advance down like the archer line.
It doesn't need to be on the tech tree. They could be just like the warriors and be available from the start.
rocklikeafool
Warmaster
I know, but I was jus listin off my thoughts as to why the tech tree is how it is. But maybe I could try and put some units that would satisfy you all.
Yeah, true. I could jus attach em to the same thing warriors are attached to, which is a sorta prereq to all techs I think. (It's jus a lil XML tag, if I remember correctly.) That would work.
@EVERYONE
Ok, everyone, here's a lil solution to this whole problem. I'm goin to make a few units and attach em to the tech tree. Then, we can have separate archery lines and separate melee lines.
So, any suggestions as to wat the units should called? Wat strength should they be? Any automatic bonuses? Jus hit me with anythin you can think and I'll try to incorporate it into the units.
rocklikeafool
Warmaster
I know, but I was jus listin off my thoughts as to why the tech tree is how it is. But maybe I could try and put some units that would satisfy you all.
Yeah, true. I could jus attach em to the same thing warriors are attached to.
@EVERYONE
Ok, everyone, here's a lil solution to this whole problem. I'm goin to make a few units and attach em to the existin tech tree. (I'm not gonna add new techs or fiddle with the current tech tree. I have no time to do so. I have a job and other things such as yardwork to do.) Then, we can have separate archery lines and separate melee lines.
So, any suggestions as to wat the units should be called? Wat strength should they be? Any automatic bonuses? Jus hit me with anythin and everythin you can think of and I'll try to incorporate it into the units.
Before anyone asks, I currently have no time frame for this. But I hope to be done with it and have it all tweaked in less than a month. I'll try my best to release the first version (which will prolly have lots of bugs) ASAP. So, hit me with your ideas and we can get goin.
Note: Some things are either impossible for me to do with my level of XML skill or jus don't make sense to do (cuz of the way XML works). So, if I can't do it, I'll try to get a friend to help me. If none of my friends can do it, I'll have to leave it out.
the problem is not adding more units or really doing more tweaking of units as it is in the fixing of the tech tree.
pulling the metals away from melee helps balance that.
the problem is with the tech tree itself
-- the metal line
-- the industry
-- the units
-- the promotions
but apparently given the suggestions you did not really read or think about what I was stating in the first few posts
pulling the metals away from melee helps balance that.
the problem is with the tech tree itself
-- the metal line
-- the industry
-- the units
-- the promotions
but apparently given the suggestions you did not really read or think about what I was stating in the first few posts
Oh I agree completely that we need to pull the melee line out of where it is. Because currently you are forced to take the melee line whether you want to or not. But I still feel that we need to start with an early defender and remove the warriors bonus to city defense.
A_Hamster
Small Furry Animal
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Basically, I agree with daladinn's basic premise, but think it is too complex a modification. Still, I think an experiment with an alternate tech tree is in order, and that means someone needs to mod it. (Zenophobe has provided tech cost data in another thread which will be useful.)
Is it difficult to change the tech tree? Can the editing be done in XML? I've a *little* XML knowledge (learned here at CivFanatics) and did a simple personal mod for Warlords, but I've never tried editing the tech tree. Is there a tutorial? (been looking ...)
Is it difficult to change the tech tree? Can the editing be done in XML? I've a *little* XML knowledge (learned here at CivFanatics) and did a simple personal mod for Warlords, but I've never tried editing the tech tree. Is there a tutorial? (been looking ...)
rocklikeafool
Warmaster
That's wat I basically say too.
rocklikeafool
Warmaster
Umhumm...agreed. That's why we should test it out a lil.
i dont honestly think this setup is going to be hard for the AI to grasp. if its looking defensive it gets archers and decided for city or field based. if its going aggressive it goes for foot troops. if it has the coins it upgrades them.
the trick is in trying it since it solves sooo many issues , even if its only in a mod mod
the trick is in trying it since it solves sooo many issues , even if its only in a mod mod
A_Hamster
Small Furry Animal
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Well, I'm willing to try modding it if no one more qualified volunteers, but I do need my earlier questions answered if I'm going to attempt this.
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