Thoughts on Diablo III?

[Akka]

My point on that is that there are way more choices in music than in video games, thus issues of taste, quality and popularity dont translate as well as they could.

So the more choice there is, the more likely people are going to find something terrible appealing ?

IF there was any logical link between amount of choice and quality, it would stand to reason that the more there is to chose from, the higher standards would be, not the opposite - it's easier to find something good when there is diversity, while a lack of option may force someone to go with the "less bad" of the lot, or to not realize how much better things could be.

This sounds to me like your complaint against WoW was its downplaying of elitism and catering more to the casual gamer.

Actually, my opinion is the opposite, WoW generally got better over time, not worse. One of my worst complaints from the earlier days of WoW is the time sink a 40 man dungeon run was due to the class needs and coordination it took. My life just got to where I couldnt sit around for 4 to 5 hours to do a molten core run. Later tools like the dungeon finder, summoning stones, etc. etc. made it much more enjoyable, and less of a time sink. Those type of additions only got better with time. Sure there were continual class balancing issues and skill tree changes, but that goes without saying for any game that continually tries to raise the bar, challenge and level caps for its player base.

WoW was a lot of things, but it was never 'terrible'.

Anyway, enough of this on WoW and quality vs popularity. This is a D3 thread.

You realize you're celebrating the dumbing down of a game and saying that "dumber = better" ?
Explain much about your opinions in this thread, and your unability to see how "terrible" can still be popular.

 

[Thormodr]

Lol.

After years and years of anti-RMT posts, idealism, the lawsuits against RMT companies, and official statements regarding the negative impacts of RMT.. Blizzard is now joining them because the money is just too much to pass up.

We're all hypocrits, but it's even worse for those who situate themselves on high horses.

Blizzard even made an official "We would like to make a clear statement here.." anti-gold post at one point.. it was online for 3 years, but then promptly removed before making the D3 announcement; http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/basics/antigold.html

Spoiler :

So, what exactly has Blizzard had to say about RMT in the past? What were their ideals, beliefs, and values?

* Blizzard says RMT has "detrimental effects they have on all players, including their own customers, as well as on the game environment as a whole."
* Blizzard says players who participate in RMT are supporting spamming, botting, and keylogging.
* Blizzard says that these activities diminish the gameplay experience for everyone.
* Blizzard says RMT encourages botting, spamming, and account hacking.
* Blizzard says that people don't realize "the large impact it has on the game economy".
* Blizzard says RMT is unethical.
* Blizzard has even gone as far to say that RMT is "illegal".
* Blizzard considers it exploitative activity as it abuses the economy.
* Blizzard says RMT exchange "negatively impacts" the game environment by "detracting from the value of the in-game economy."
* Blizzard says RMT devalues everything in-game and it ruins the economy.
* Blizzard says as a result it also ruins the gaming experience for everyone.
* Blizzard says RMT increases botting and account hacking activities.
* Blizzard has always had a firm opposition to RMT, but justifies the use of "cosmetic RMT" (that is, pet sales, texture changes, mounts, etc.) because it doesn't impact fairness of the game.

By the way, if you're a gamer, please don't use the word legal or illegal when referring to RMT. It's very embarrassing when I see forum or blog comments that say "Blizzard is now making it LEGAL to sell virtual items!"

There's a huge difference between internal company policies and actual law.

Also, some very interesting links here and some pretty good stuff in the blog archives:

http://daeity.blogspot.com/2011/08/blizzard-v-rmt.html

Oh and for people that think duping won't happen in Diablo 3:

I will be creating some blogposts about gold/cash making in Diablo 3. The new RMT system really interests me, so I'll be jumping right into that. It will be easier once the game comes out, of course, but for now I already know of some sneaky (and currently unpublished) methods. Most of them will be legitimate methods of gold farming and I haven't decided yet whether to create the more shady guides.

But first, there's something I need to get off my chest.

If anyone ever says that World of Warcraft has never had duping or that Diablo 3 will never have duplication exploits because WoW has never had them; I am sorry, but you are completely wrong.

Anyone who believes this is;

* Misinformed and they believed it without question
* or, they don't know for sure but go with the flow
* or, they only read official Blizzard press releases and didn't read other WoW news sites
* or, they never read the forums
* or, they know it happened but they drank the blue kool-aid, pushed it into the back of their memories, will only say positive things about Blizzard, and will try to convince everyone else in their beliefs.

Diablo 3 will have dupe exploits and tricks as well, I have no doubt in my mind. Item duping, gold duping, point duping, or stat duping (e.g. stacking of stats).. users will always find a way.

Blizzard has a great team of programmers but a lot of these exploits slip by. They have a limited quantity of QA Testers, and besides, they are tasked with testing the gameplay, quests, and bugs that appear in normal gaming sessions for the casual player. They don't sit there with WPE trying to exploit the game.

Exploits are discovered over a long period of time and after thousands of players have played the game and stretched the variety of gameplay in ever which direction.

Unfortunately, most gamers believe "Diablo = Serverside = no Dupes/Hacks". I am completely shocked by the amount of players who believe this. Wikipedia and even wowwiki even have "duping" articles because they're so common. Please, question everything.

If anyone every does tell you that "wow duping never happened", just send them a link back here. Below are some examples of item duplication exploits and tricks that have taken place on the official World of Warcraft realms.

Finally, the Diablo III design philosophy. Enlightening read:

http://daeity.blogspot.com/2011/08/diablo-3-design-philosophy.html

 

[MobBoss]

I hope you don't use that as a life-philosophy, since it doesn't make much sense. It means the trend followers are always right and the trend setters are wrong, until they bring the former into line. Innovation and invention doesn't frequently come with people satisfied with the status quo; it comes from the critics who want better.

Please remember we are talking about a product here, not some moral/ethical issue.

So the more choice there is, the more likely people are going to find something terrible appealing ?

IF there was any logical link between amount of choice and quality, it would stand to reason that the more there is to chose from, the higher standards would be, not the opposite - it's easier to find something good when there is diversity, while a lack of option may force someone to go with the "less bad" of the lot, or to not realize how much better things could be.

You realize you're celebrating the dumbing down of a game and saying that "dumber = better" ?
Explain much about your opinions in this thread, and your unability to see how "terrible" can still be popular.

Sometimes dumber is indeed better and there have been more than a few video games that over-reached and were simply too complex or too tedious to be successful. Case in point: Master of Orion 3 was a game greatly anticipated, but in execution it required a frustrating level of micro-management and players were virtually hyper-exposed with so many choices that the game itself was too much like work to be fun.

The point being there is a fine line of balance somewhere between 'rock, paper, scissors' and dark matter theory to enable a game to be playable and enjoyable.

But fwiw, I also think you confuse easier with dumber as well. For example, the changes to WoW to make grouping easier and do quick PUG runs of dungeons as opposed to the overly complex 40 man marathons werent a dumbing down of the game at all, but making it easier for more people to enjoy doing dungeons. Neither did said changes make the game 'terrible'.

 

[Akka]

Sometimes dumber is indeed better and there have been more than a few video games that over-reached and were simply too complex or too tedious to be successful. Case in point: Master of Orion 3 was a game greatly anticipated, but in execution it required a frustrating level of micro-management and players were virtually hyper-exposed with so many choices that the game itself was too much like work to be fun.

"simpler" may be better, but certainly not "dumber", on the contrary.

The point being there is a fine line of balance somewhere between 'rock, paper, scissors' and dark matter theory to enable a game to be playable and enjoyable.

But fwiw, I also think you confuse easier with dumber as well. For example, the changes to WoW to make grouping easier and do quick PUG runs of dungeons as opposed to the overly complex 40 man marathons werent a dumbing down of the game at all, but making it easier for more people to enjoy doing dungeons. Neither did said changes make the game 'terrible'.

Removing the whole "multiplayer" part of a MMO and destroying both 95 % of the content and of the progression aren't something that improve a game. And yes it made the game terrible - save for the lowest common denominator, of course, as it was targetted toward them.

Though I'm pretty sure you'll, again, miss the point. That's been your main method of reasoning so far.

 

[MobBoss]

"simpler" may be better, but certainly not "dumber", on the contrary.

Thats just semantics and doesnt disprove my point.

Removing the whole "multiplayer" part of a MMO and destroying both 95 % of the content and of the progression aren't something that improve a game. And yes it made the game terrible - save for the lowest common denominator, of course, as it was targetted toward them.

I dont even know what you mean by this allegation.....multiplayer was removed from WoW? How do you figure?

Though I'm pretty sure you'll, again, miss the point. That's been your main method of reasoning so far.

Not at all, but it seems saying this is your only real option.

 

[LightSpectra]

Please remember we are talking about a product here, not some moral/ethical issue.

I don't see how that makes my statement less right.

 

[Akka]

Thats just semantics and doesnt disprove my point.

Your point is that the slaughtering of WoW and its dumbing down is good. There is nothing to disprove here as it's already ridiculous to begin with.

And my point was a way to say that you can make a design more elegant by keeping it simple, while still having depth (most of the Civilization serie is an excellent example), but that making a game dumber is removing depth. And removing depth is certainly not a way to improve a game.
WoW has lost most of its multiplayer interactions, most of its content and nearly all of its meaningful progression to become a mind-numbing rush without any involvement, thought or adventure, filled with "help for dummies" breaking any kind of immersion or depth. Then someone come and say "it can't be terrible if it's popular, and BTW WoW is great and all these modification made if more fun !". I guess the hilarious irony of it is escaping you.

I dont even know what you mean by this allegation.....multiplayer was removed from WoW? How do you figure?

WoW has lost nearly all its multiplayer component due to "play by clicking one button and be showered with pointless gear" horrid additions (that you celebrate, once again showing how you missed one of the core point of the game).

There is nearly no interaction left between players outside of guilds and some raids today, for the rest they could be replaced by bots in instances (no communication and no challenge) and are simply absent from the rest of the game (everyone crammed in the capitals).
I'm not even going to talk about the nigh complete disappearance of the social network outside guild.

Not at all, but it seems saying this is your only real option.

Your record speak louder than such childish "no you !" retorts.
So far you've simply spent your time contradicting yourself with delicious irony, and proved the opposite's side points.

 

[MobBoss]

I still dont get what you mean by the 'slaughtering of WoW'...and you havent given a any counter that in some cases, 'dumbing down' is precisely the thing to do.

You said there was no more multiplayer...and then talk about guilds and raids ....which obviously are multiplayer...

And then you mumble about me contradicting myself and proving the opposite side's points.

I see.

You come off as more of a frustrated power gamer, upset that companies like Blizz might just cater to a more casual crowd than recognizing your life contribution to the game....thus you completely over-hype what you deem terrible and devastating changes to the game all the while choosing to turn a blind eye to its continued success.

Hell hath no fury like a gamer scorned, eh?

Anyway, thats all for me in this thread unless it somehow gets back on track for D3.

 

[SuperJay]

Anyway, thats all for me in this thread unless it somehow gets back on track for D3.

That's an interesting parting comment to make after you helped derail it for the last few pages.

On-topic, re: loot distribution - It may have been mentioned earlier in the thread, but I did just hear that the loot drops are going to be "localized" to the player. The items you see drop off a kill are only available to you, and can't be ninja'd by other players.

Still, the RMAH means there's a disincentive to trading items and helping your fellow players, since your Barbarian can sell that uber magic staff for real-world currency. Time will tell how that plays out, of course.

 

[Thormodr]

That's an interesting parting comment to make after you helped derail it for the last few pages.

On-topic, re: loot distribution - It may have been mentioned earlier in the thread, but I did just hear that the loot drops are going to be "localized" to the player. The items you see drop off a kill are only available to you, and can't be ninja'd by other players.

Still, the RMAH means there's a disincentive to trading items and helping your fellow players, since your Barbarian can sell that uber magic staff for real-world currency. Time will tell how that plays out, of course.

Also, I wonder how it will work when fighting a boss monster/mob boss? Will the player who delivers the "coup de grâce" get the best treasure? Will it be apportioned to all that dealt damage to the boss monster/mob boss?

How willing will a player be to inform his teammates when he finds a $20 item? Will he be willing to give it up to his friend? Real money seems to put a wrench into the works. It also shatters the illusion of immersion in my opinion.

I dislike the way the RMAH in Diablo III is basically a testing ground to see its impact on game play. It's guaranteed that they will be pushing this RMAH in all future releases including Titan, their upcoming new MMO.

It'll also be interesting to see if it will be considered gambling by certain countries. Especially with little boys playing with their parent's credit cards.

A pretty good argument could be put forth that it is indeed gambling.

Blizzard claims that Diablo 3 and its RMT is a free market, there is no gambling, there are no risks associated with the RMT system, lottery tickets in RL can only be bought if you exchange money directly for them, and that their current RMT system has been thoroughly researched and approved by their legal department.

But, this is what is really happening:

* Diablo 3 has listing fees, auction cuts, and cash out fees.
* Auction cuts and cash out fees are not related to chance. They only happen after a successful transaction.
* The listing fee, however, is a gamble every time you post an item. There is a risk that you might not sell the item.
* If your auction does not sell, you lose money. This is a game of chance, there are high stakes in volume, and you are gambling with your money.
* The game is all about volume. Blizzard stated that Diablo 3 was "item centric". There are high stakes and losses associated with high volumes of transactions.
* Blizzard is making most of their profits from listing fees.
* If there was no listing fee, there would be no gambling or "games of chance".
* These aren't 1-10 day EBay auctions or 24-48 hour WoW auctions. These auctions are very short. The shorter the time span; the less likely chance of finding a successful buyer. When you only have 30 minute (or 60 max) auction intervals, you will be hard-pressed to win.
* You are also paying higher listing charges for longer auction periods.
* Auction Houses are regional so there will be millions of players that can be involved in random undercutting of items leading to the house (Blizzard) winning. Item drops are randomly created, meaning that the AH posts are also random in nature.
* It's not a free market when the supply and demand is controlled by a governing body.
* The retailers example is also a poor analogy. When you buy milk from a store, the retailer doesn't charge you a fixed fee, and then check to see if there's a random chance of milk being available because milk is delivered randomly.

Because of the listing fee, it's a game of chance every time and Blizzard has created a brilliant method of indirect gambling to avoid licensing.

By changing loot tables and random chance algorithms, Blizzard can alter volume. Volume or rarity = more listings = gambling by the players (but this is not a gamble for the house) = more listing fee revenue (the house always wins)

Selling an item is a game of chance, there's high risk involved, there's monetary loss involved due to random chance, and it's gambling. If the Auction House is changed so that there is only a cut after a successful auction, then it is not gambling. On a related note, EBay charges insertion fees, however the fee is refunded if your item does not sell.

Even if you're dealing with pennies per transaction, it's still gambling. In the case of Diablo, though, you're dealing with greater volumes of transactions. The game is "item centric" after all with massive quantities of loot dropping from the heavens with random real money value.

http://daeity.blogspot.com/2011/08/rmah-is-gambling-indeed.html

 

[MobBoss]

That's an interesting parting comment to make after you helped derail it for the last few pages.

Its hard for me to ignore comments directed to me. And there, I just did it again.

On-topic, re: loot distribution - It may have been mentioned earlier in the thread, but I did just hear that the loot drops are going to be "localized" to the player. The items you see drop off a kill are only available to you, and can't be ninja'd by other players.

Thats actually a very nice thing - especially if said loot is going to have a real world monetary value.

Still, the RMAH means there's a disincentive to trading items and helping your fellow players, since your Barbarian can sell that uber magic staff for real-world currency. Time will tell how that plays out, of course.

Well, while that may be true for some, a lot of gamers will simply be transferring that loot off their barbarian and giving it to their mage. One of the great things about Diablo 2 was enjoying the different character classes and seeing how they fit your style of play. I expect D3 to be pretty much the same in that regard.

 

[Rub'Rum]

Still, the RMAH means there's a disincentive to trading items and helping your fellow players, since your Barbarian can sell that uber magic staff for real-world currency. Time will tell how that plays out, of course.

Exactly. Or any incentive to keep it for yourself at all, if there is really a way to make 20$ right there and then.

Also, I wonder how it will work when fighting a boss monster/mob boss? Will the player who delivers the "coup de grâce" get the best treasure? Will it be apportioned to all that dealt damage to the boss monster/mob boss?

None of this as far as I know. If you're around when the boss dies, you get a drop that isn't tailored to your performance I think. But I do think you need to be sufficiently close (can't hang back in the beginning of the current "zone", where there are no monsters).

It'll also be interesting to see if it will be considered gambling by certain countries.

The whole gambling issue is legit. Imagine if no-lives wasting their years away on slot machines in shady bars start playing D3 instead

 

[MobBoss]

Also, I wonder how it will work when fighting a boss monster/mob boss? Will the player who delivers the "coup de grâce" get the best treasure? Will it be apportioned to all that dealt damage to the boss monster/mob boss?

Good question. I doubt it will be damage dealt for the simple reason some classes/builds are more support than DD, and it wouldnt seem fair to those classes to hook loot to that datapoint.

I hope they do it as a group effort, i.e. if your part of the group, you get your share of the loot. Groups will just have to be on the lookout for leeches.

How willing will a player be to inform his teammates when he finds a $20 item? Will he be willing to give it up to his friend? Real money seems to put a wrench into the works. It kind of shatters the illusion of immersion in my opinion.

Its not a big deal among my RL friends to trade 'need' items to one another. Not sure what 'immersion' has to do with sharing loot with others.

I dislike the way the RMAH in Diablo III is basically a testing ground to see its impact on gameplay. It's guaranteed that they will be pushing this game in all future releases including Titan, their upcoming new MMO.

It will probably put a pricetag on being ultra-competitive in PvP, but otherwise, I dont see that much real impact.

It'll also be interesting to see if it will be considered gambling by certain countries. Especially with little boys playing with their parent's credit cards.

Gambling? How?

 

[Thormodr]

Good question. I doubt it will be damage dealt for the simple reason some classes/builds are more support than DD, and it wouldnt seem fair to those classes to hook loot to that datapoint.

I hope they do it as a group effort, i.e. if your part of the group, you get your share of the loot. Groups will just have to be on the lookout for leeches.



Its not a big deal among my RL friends to trade 'need' items to one another. Not sure what 'immersion' has to do with sharing loot with others.



It will probably put a pricetag on being ultra-competitive in PvP, but otherwise, I dont see that much real impact.



Gambling? How?

The quote I provided makes a fairly convincing argument. Feel free to tear it apart piece by piece if you like rather than just ignoring it.

 

[Akka]

I still dont get what you mean by the 'slaughtering of WoW'...

Yeah, we all see it that you don't get it, sadly.

You come off as more of a frustrated power gamer, upset that companies like Blizz might just cater to a more casual crowd than recognizing your life contribution to the game....

I'm a "gamer" (that is, someone who actually like to PLAY and to have stimulating games, and is not just looking to waste mindlessly some time) and yes I'm quite frustrated that the vast majority of games are dumbed down to align them to the mass of retards for which Facebook's applications were designed.

It's like having a ton of idiots coming to a chess club, and making it a checker club because chess is "too complicated". Yeah, chess players are going to be pissed off, no sh*t Herlock.

thus you completely over-hype what you deem terrible and devastating changes to the game all the while choosing to turn a blind eye to its continued success.

No, I just see that a game that was great has become truly bad (the point you admit yourself you are unable to get), and I know that "success" has little to do with "quality" (the other point you are unable to get, despite several hard examples given to you, that you either completely ignored or attempted to justify with laughable reasoning that blew up in your face).

Funny fact : in both case, you are the one unable to get the point, not the other way around.

 

[Rub'Rum]

Don't talk **** about checkers

 

[Adam7Eight]

This thread is about to de-rail.

 

[Akka]

Don't talk **** about checkers

^^

Meant to use the game where you have to check three cases in a row (on a 3x3 board), but I don't know its english name

 

[Rub'Rum]

I guess it's tic-tac-toe?

Spoiler :

 

[Wolfbeckett]

This thread is about to de-rail.

Where have you been, chief? This thread derailed ages ago.