Thoughts on Sanction Proposal?

[Recursive]

I was thinking about this in my current game when both myself and Ethiopia were sanctioned mainly by the diplomatic juggernaut that was Siam, to whom we were the main threat. So yeah, a few brainstorming ideas:

a.) make sanctions a temporary resolution, i.e. if voted into effect, it only lasts a certain amount of turns, for example 30 turns (not sure if feasible code-wise), after that it can't be re-proposed for another amount of turns (let's say 20 turns);

b.) make sanctions require a special/higher majority (how high would be up to discussion) - not sure how feasible code-wise;

c.) split it into two separate and mutually exclusive resolutions: diplomatic sanctions (can't make DoFs or joint wars, can't use open borders, can't make defensive pacts, can't trade vassalage, can't trade techs, can't trade research agreements, can't trade votes, can't bribe re: wars; great musicians can't be used in their territory; all current diplomatic arrangements (open borders, defensive pacts, VOLUNTARY vassalge etc.) cease effect immediately; all this applies to vassals of the sanctioned civ, i.e. the vassal and master can make deals with each other, but the vassal cannot make deals with 3rd civs) and economic sanctions (can't sell or buy resources, can't send or receive trade units except with owned vassals (so not even with city states), all current economic arrangements cease effect immediately (that would be more AI friendly, because the human player currently has an advantage of knowing to buy&sell as much as possible before a sanction vote), new corporations' franchises can't be established, but existing ones remain in existence)

d.) have the sanctions NOT apply to civs sharing the same ideology (let's imagine that ideologically aligned civs would shun any attempts by the UN to curtail trading/diplomacy between them)

e.) eliminate certain aspects of the sanctions effect

f.) eliminate sanctions altogether

I'd personally prefer the c.) option, because that way you'd have two different tools available to harm another civ, but you'd have to choose between them, so no civ would be completely cut off from the world, making sanctions less extremely punishing, and I also like the d.) option, making ideological groupings more meaningful . The problem I see with the b.) option is that a diplomatic runaway can at some point wield almost complete control over the congress, bypassing the effectiveness of the higher majority condition, also I imagine it'd be hard to code. The a.) option also seems hard to code, but other than that I think I like it. I'm not a fan of e.) or f.) either, but I could be convinced for either option.

If it were split into two proposals, I'd suggest replacing Ban Luxury to reduce proposal bloat. You could even negate all luxury monopoly bonuses of the economically sanctioned civ, which would have a similar effect while being a more impactful proposal. Diplomatic Sanctions would be good against opponents the proposition wants to fight and Economic Sanctions would be good against peaceful runaways.

a) and b) are technically feasible but would require new code.

I personally really like c) with the addition of Economic Sanctions blocking luxury monopoly bonuses. One caveat, though: for Economic Sanctions, I'd remove both the luxury AND strategic monopoly bonuses, whilst Ban Luxury should remain as a global resolution which affects all civs, not just the sanctioned civ. Should also note that Diplomatic Sanctions would retain the reduction to warmongering penalties and liberation bonuses.

@Milae would need to modify the AI again to implement this, too.

 

[LifeOfBrian]

Great to hear, Recursive

 

[Recursive]

I'm going to start a new thread with a slightly modified version of your proposal for people to vote on (I think existing franchises should still be removed, otherwise it won't be powerful enough)

 

[LifeOfBrian]

Awesome, looking forward to seeing it!

 

[LifeOfBrian]

Just wanted to add that ideally we'd strive for both of these resolutions to be strong enough on their own and equally-ish strong when compared to each other, so that people won't prefer one by default. @Recursive , please note my post on the previous page where I proposed Diplomatic sanctions could perhaps hit CS-oriented civs by increasing the costs of diplo units etc. At first glance I fear Economic sanctions might be considerably stronger than Diplomatic sanctions if we include removing existing franchises and not only luxury monopolies, but strategic monopolies as well, especially since quite a few people seem to usually play without research agreements and trading techs enabled. Just something to consider, I'm sure you would have considered that in any case, but just wanted to point out just in case.

 

[Recursive]

Just wanted to add that ideally we'd strive for both of these resolutions to be strong enough on their own and equally-ish strong when compared to each other, so that people won't prefer one by default. @Recursive , please note my post on the previous page where I proposed Diplomatic sanctions could perhaps hit CS-oriented civs by increasing the costs of diplo units etc. At first glance I fear Economic sanctions might be considerably stronger than Diplomatic sanctions if we include removing existing franchises and not only luxury monopolies, but strategic monopolies as well, especially since quite a few people seem to usually play without research agreements and trading techs enabled. Just something to consider, I'm sure you would have considered that in any case, but just wanted to point out just in case.

I added the inability to Denounce other civs and doubled warmongering penalties to Diplomatic Sanctions.

 

[Fluffball]

a) and b) are technically feasible but would require new code.

I personally really like c) with the addition of Economic Sanctions blocking luxury monopoly bonuses. One caveat, though: for Economic Sanctions, I'd remove both the luxury AND strategic monopoly bonuses, whilst Ban Luxury should remain as a global resolution which affects all civs, not just the sanctioned civ. Should also note that Diplomatic Sanctions would retain the reduction to warmongering penalties and liberation bonuses.

@Milae would need to modify the AI again to implement this, too.

I would like to suggest a tweak on Life of Brians suggestions along the lines of:

• Varying levels of sanctions which are cumulative with each level ramping up the effects...something like:

1. level 1 you can't make new trade deals with none vassal civs but caravans and corporate franchises aren't affected (simulates real world where sanctions initially target sale of military or luxury good but allow trade in basic items) Open borders still allowed and embasy not cancelled. Monopoly bonuses unaffected. Vassals can trade as normal.
   
2. level 2 all existing (none vassal) trade deals are immediately ended except research agreements (can't make new research agreements) and you can't send new carvans to none vassal civs. Can't have open borders but emabssy not removed and corporate franchises are become inactive in none vassal cities but are not removed. Monopoly bonus is removed. Vassals can trade as normal.
3. level 3 full sanctions where all trade with none vassals is immediately ended, embassy are cancelled and corporate franchises are removed as well as monopoly bonuses removed. Vassals can no longer trade with anyone but their master.

• Sanctions last for one session unless renewed. When renewed they increase 1 level, if not renewed they decrease 1 level.

I have primarily focused on trade rather than dimplomacy for a more succinct example but diplomacy could be intertwined in the levels also or we could simply make one type of sanctions which are deemed more severe (economic?) reliant on having passed the less severe sanctions first and this is all obviously subject to resonable practicality, if the AI could understand the concept and balancing the levels.

 

[Omen of Peace]

I like the notion of expiring Sanctions (I proposed it once in the past), though I'd set the duration to longer than 30 years (it can still be repelled before that).