Thoughts on the state of the game since New Frontier Pass

[Kupe Navigator]

Fireaxis Civ is basically a Bethesda situation.

It’s the same shoddy workmanship and complete lack of QA, but if you have a good modding environment the game suddenly has a LOT of potential

So I’d only get Civ7 if it’s on Steam, it’s mod friendly, and I’ll probably wait till there is some sort of anthology

I will say that the console and iPhone ports work way way better than I had any reason to expect, since I somehow never get all the crashes and stuff.

I'll wait after 2nd or 3rd expansion. Till then I will happily play civ 6.

 

[DizzKneeLand33]

So I’d only get Civ7 if it’s on Steam, it’s mod friendly

And not just empty promises of "mod friendliness" this time, but actual proof. Until then, not again -- no purchase on prerelease, no purchase until modding is *proven* friendly. And if you look at my join date (and I had another avatar for about 3 years before this one) , you would think that would mean something to by far my favorite game franchise of all time. But, honestly, I'm not sure anymore.

 

[AntSou]

And not just empty promises of "mod friendliness" this time, but actual proof.

You mean, like it actually is?

 

[Leucarum]

It is a bit odd that they wouldn't have some sort of patch right out the gate, and that really has me worried about the eventual state of the game. People are calling the leader pack rushed or half-baked, but art assets are substantial to produce, which makes me doubt the assessment that firaxis are committing the bare minimum to make it. Still, probably a considerable portion of the audience are getting it for free, which also makes me wonder where firaxis is making profit here? Is this one giant advert for Civ7? A test for how well received different content would be? My gut is that something isn't adding up in terms of a business case for the leader pack, so that in turn makes me suspect there is something happening we don't know about.

 

[Kupe Navigator]

It is a bit odd that they wouldn't have some sort of patch right out the gate, and that really has me worried about the eventual state of the game. People are calling the leader pack rushed or half-baked, but art assets are substantial to produce, which makes me doubt the assessment that firaxis are committing the bare minimum to make it. Still, probably a considerable portion of the audience are getting it for free, which also makes me wonder where firaxis is making profit here? Is this one giant advert for Civ7? A test for how well received different content would be? My gut is that something isn't adding up in terms of a business case for the leader pack, so that in turn makes me suspect there is something happening we don't know about.

Others could argue it is to drive up sales of Anthology.

 

[need my speed]

You mean, like it actually is?

Can you edit Civilization VI's DLL?

 

[TheMarshmallowBear]

And not just empty promises of "mod friendliness" this time, but actual proof. Until then, not again -- no purchase on prerelease, no purchase until modding is *proven* friendly. And if you look at my join date (and I had another avatar for about 3 years before this one) , you would think that would mean something to by far my favorite game franchise of all time. But, honestly, I'm not sure anymore.

I find Civ 6 to be quite moddable, even without a DLL, you can still do a lot more in 6 than you coudl 5 without a DLL, heck, you can do quite a lot without even getting into Lua.

 

[pokiehl]

Can you edit Civilization VI's DLL?

DLL access is not the end-all be-all of modding. The game’s core modifier system is far more flexible than the system in Civ 5 which obviates the vast majority of need for DLL access, plus graphic modding has never been more friendly. We got access to nearly every asset in the game except for what came with some DLCs.

This “muh DLL” narrative is really annoying to me as a modder. Almost no actual modders care about this. Every time I read it, it’s from people who don’t mod.

 

[need my speed]

DLL access is not the end-all be-all of modding. The game’s core modifier system is far more flexible than the system in Civ 5 which obviates the vast majority of need for DLL access, plus graphic modding has never been more friendly. We got access to nearly every asset in the game except for what came with some DLCs.

This “muh DLL” narrative is really annoying to me as a modder. Almost no actual modders care about this. Every time I read it, it’s from people who don’t mod.

Have you ever seen Civilization IV? Mods such as Rhye's and Fall of Civilization, Caveman 2 Cosmos, Rise of Mankind, Realism Invictus, RevolutionDCM, Fall From Heaven, K-Mod, BUG and all its submods (on which practically every mod ever is based), and ever so on? They all require DLL access.

And, I have been modding for virtually my whole life, Civilization in particular for more than a decade - not that that matters in any way, but you felt the need to add it to your message, so.

 

[pokiehl]

Have you ever seen Civilization IV? Mods such as Rhye's and Fall of Civilization, Caveman 2 Cosmos, Rise of Mankind, Realism Invictus, RevolutionDCM, Fall From Heaven, K-Mod, BUG and all its submods (on which practically every mod ever is based), and ever so on? They all require DLL access.

And, I have been modding for virtually my whole life, Civilization in particular for more than a decade - not that that matters in any way, but you felt the need to add it to your message, so.

Undoubtedly those huge overhauls require DLL access, yes. But the number of VI modders interested in making huge overhauls like that numbers like 3 or less, and as a player, I’m not interested in overhauls like that. For 99% of us we can do nearly everything we want with the current tools.

Plus this time around we got mods being easy to use in multiplayer. That is HUGE for me and something I’m eternally grateful for.

Are there things I’d like improved for VII’s modding? Of course!

- more stable SDK and asset editor
- more documentation
- a return to SQL-editable ArtDefs
- art modding being less tedious in general
- and so on

But I don’t think DLL access would even make my top 10 of what I want better in VII.

 

[AntSou]

Can you edit Civilization VI's DLL?

No, but what has that got to do with anything? There's a handful of proficient modders who could probably make really good use of access to DLL. But "friendliness" implies ease of access.

Besides, a quick look around the workshop proves that the current modding tools not only are "friendly", they also offer a ton of depth.

From all I've read, it seems the most significant limitation is in regards to modding the AI. It would be great to have modders able to work on that, especially seeing how Firaxis doesn't seem to prioritise it. But that's a matter of offering greater depth to a miniscule amount of modders, rather than being about accessibility to a wider population.

 

[Casworon]

Undoubtedly those huge overhauls require DLL access, yes. But the number of VI modders interested in making huge overhauls like that numbers like 3 or less, and as a player, I’m not interested in overhauls like that. For 99% of us we can do nearly everything we want with the current tools.

Plus this time around we got mods being easy to use in multiplayer. That is HUGE for me and something I’m eternally grateful for.

Are there things I’d like improved for VII’s modding? Of course!

- more stable SDK and asset editor
- more documentation
- a return to SQL-editable ArtDefs
- art modding being less tedious in general
- and so on

But I don’t think DLL access would even make my top 10 of what I want better in VII.

There will never be a Civ VI Vox Populi equivalent.

Also does stronger AI not reach your top 10 of what you want better in Civ VII?

DLL modding access opens the door to being able to do much more to modify AI.

 

[pokiehl]

From all I've read, it seems the most significant limitation is in regards to modding the AI.

Good point, I forgot about the AI. It would have course be nice to have a good AI mod beyond what Infixo has already been able to accomplish with Real Strategy.

 

[pokiehl]

There will never be a Civ VI Vox Populi equivalent.

Also does stronger AI not reach your top 10 of what you want better in Civ VII?

DLL modding access opens the door to being able to do much more to modify AI.

Agree about the AI, but I don’t care for Vox Populi. The main draw for me there is the AI, not the reworks of civs or the other gameplay stuff.

 

[TheMarshmallowBear]

There will never be a Civ VI Vox Populi equivalent.

Also does stronger AI not reach your top 10 of what you want better in Civ VII?

DLL modding access opens the door to being able to do much more to modify AI.

I mean, you can argue that if the onyl thing you need DLL for is AI, then I think that makes the game pretty mod-friendly

Considering the amount of LUA hacks people needed to do for certain bonuses in 5 for units/buildings/policies because of the hard-coded effects (you couldn't give a free building to the first four cities via World Wonder for example, you can in 6).

JFD was able to add new Policy Card Slot Types in 6, while in 5 you'd really need to lean heavily into the LUA to even get a new unique effect functioning using Dummy buildings.

 

[pokiehl]

I mean, you can argue that if the onyl thing you need DLL for is AI, then I think that makes the game pretty mod-friendly

Considering the amount of LUA hacks people needed to do for certain bonuses in 5 for units/buildings/policies because of the hard-coded effects (you couldn't give a free building to the first four cities via World Wonder for example, you can in 6).

JFD was able to add new Policy Card Slot Types in 6, while in 5 you'd really need to lean heavily into the LUA to even get a new unique effect functioning using Dummy buildings.

Agreed.

I’m all for fairy criticizing Civ 6 (look what thread we are posting in!) but when it comes to modding, I think a certain vocal portion of the community generally comes across as ungrateful or short-sighted.

It’s as if nothing else matters whatsoever except this fabled DLL access which would surely be the panacea to cure our troubles and bring about world peace.

It’s easy for us to forget how far different aspects of modding have come from 5 to 6.

 

[TheMarshmallowBear]

Agreed.

I’m all for fairy criticizing Civ 6 (look what thread we are posting in!) but when it comes to modding, I think a certain vocal portion of the community generally comes across as ungrateful or short-sighted.

It’s as if nothing else matters whatsoever except this fabled DLL access which would surely be the panacea to cure our troubles and bring about world peace.

It’s easy for us to forget how far different aspects of modding have come from 5 to 6.

There are still of course things I do wish we could do in 6 via modding (particularly relating to lua limitations), but the more I tinker with it, the more I realise that it is much more accessible.

There are some modifiers/game effects that are evil, which would be fun to modify with DLL but generally speaking it is so damn flexible.

 

[AntSou]

There will never be a Civ VI Vox Populi equivalent.

This is a common argument, but I usually don't see the reverse being used. For instance, in the early years of Civ 6 I kept on playing Civ 5. I realised many modded Civs got broken at some point, probably with updates prior to the final patch for civ 5. Modded Civs I had enjoyed no longer worked and were no longer being updated. I didn't know how to fix them, so I had to stop playing with them.

In Civ 6 there are some very complex mods which I probably wouldn't be able to fix by myself if they broke (the one's involving LUA), but if I ever find myself in a situation where a modded Civ no longer works as intended because the creator did not update it or something, I'm much more confident in my ability to fix it and keep enjoying it. This is what I consider ease of access.

Good point, I forgot about the AI. It would have course be nice to have a good AI mod beyond what Infixo has already been able to accomplish with Real Strategy.

When I say "modders" I was literally thinking about Infixo. I haven't been to the Real Strategy page in years, but I remember quite a few of his comments in the mod's page on steam were a variation of "I can't do anything about that!" when replying to user requests.

Edit: I just went there to see how much I would have to scroll to find one such comment... I didn't need to scroll at all.

 

[Casworon]

I suppose it depends on the experience your after.

For most of the 1000+ hour club most of the fun of playing the game seems to come from the speed running. Trying to achieve science victories in under a certain number of turns etc etc. Atleast from what I've seen from streamers etc.

For me balance, bug fixing and improved AI would offer the biggest 'fun increase'.

Modders have done great things with balance and fixing the bugs they can. And seems they have tried the best they can with improving the AI.

Real strategy, mods giving the AI more bonuses as they age up, mods giving the AI free units at different parts of the game to offer more challenge, mods weakening walls so the AI has a better chance at taking cities, mods which focus on weakening the player with higher difficulties rather than giving the AI bonuses. One interesting one that gives the players empire to an AI to control every so often so they can 'mess it up' and try to sabotage the player.

But without access to deeper AI modding it really is trying to do everything to do the best with what people have been given. Rather than getting under the hood and making bigger improvements. And they can only get so far.

I've tried really hard to make it work. Trying lots of different combinations of the mods. But then I just go boot up a different 4x where I know I will face a more interesting challenge then just speed running.

Civ VII is a great game. Its just I don't see it lasting as long in the long term as some older civ titles.

 

[need my speed]

it seems the most significant limitation is in regards to modding the AI

That's the DLL. And maybe there are so few 'large modders' precisely because they can't make a 'large mod' because there is no DLL access.

I jumped into this conversation because someone said Civilization VI is not mod friendly, upon which someone else commented that it actually is.
Well, no, it is not. Maybe on its own, but compared to the usual standard of Civilization. We've already addressed IV, and III includes a whole GUI that combines map editing with modding everything, and it has modding directly done on its .exe - even if you say 'okay but it does not have the equivalent to DLL access', then I'll still say that by your own argument a GUI is more mod friendly than a bunch of textual files. I don't know about V - and I suspect you are only comparing VI to V - and so VI may be mod friendly compared to V, but it is objectively not compared to IV, and subjectively not compared to III.

It seems that a lot of examples are 'you couldn't mod X in V, now you can in VI' - yeah, and you can mod literally every X imaginable with DLL access, including making the AI understand it (because even if you can add whole new features to VI, effects that don't exist at all within the XML files, then the AI wouldn't know what to do with them without being able to implement these features not only through Python or whatever VI's equivalent is, but in the DLL).

So, mod friendliness is indeed a valid thing that can be improved, and will do a lot for the longevity of the game in general (after all, even III is still reasonably popular) and also to fix the lazier and lazier attitude that Firaxis has attained after IV (even here I see mentions of the AI flat-out not working with e.g. Monopolies - let alone that the AI in general is very passive, incapable of handling 1UPT, and all in all just much worse than it was in IV or III).