SwampCow
Warlord
Anyone ever explain why vampires in this game are not classified as undead? Does it make them too weak when going up against units promoted to combat undead? If it is a balance issue, I can totally understand that.
Time for vampires to own up to their origin?
- Thread starter SwampCow
- Start date
Luckmann
Esusian Epicure
Maybe because they're not?
SwampCow
Warlord
What do you mean their not? Of course they are. Vampires are the most classic undead there is in all mythology. Thus the question. Why are they not classified as undead in FFH2? Balance issue?
Frostdrake
Chieftain
- Joined
- Mar 10, 2009
- Messages
- 9
At least a balance issue.
It would be way too easy to kill all these fed up vampires with this funny tier 2 spell...
And FfH vampires are 'normal' persons, who don't drink blood but strenghten themselves with their victims' souls by a complex arcane ritual... afaik
It would be way too easy to kill all these fed up vampires with this funny tier 2 spell...
And FfH vampires are 'normal' persons, who don't drink blood but strenghten themselves with their victims' souls by a complex arcane ritual... afaik
cabbagemeister
Please wait...
- Joined
- Jun 26, 2008
- Messages
- 517
FfH altered the vampire from the classic Dracula-style vamp. Erebusian vampires never died and were not reborn (and thus, are not "undead"). They also aren't destroyed by sunlight, damaged by holy water (they can take confession or become Paladins if they want!), or allergic to garlic (to my knowledge).
Why? Because this is how Kael conceptualized them. He also implemented Demons, Hell, "Good" and "Evil", elves, Lovecraftian sea monsters, and who knows what else differently from previous iterations of those creatures.
Why? Because this is how Kael conceptualized them. He also implemented Demons, Hell, "Good" and "Evil", elves, Lovecraftian sea monsters, and who knows what else differently from previous iterations of those creatures.
SwampCow
Warlord
Ah so it is written into the lore of the game. I might read that someday...
Luckmann
Esusian Epicure
Yep, in Fall from Heaven, the vampires are very much alive. Like in many other settings, they're not true undead.
I want to add that while they're not killed by sunlight, though, they do suffer extreme discomfort. It's a present from Lugus.
SwampCow
Warlord
I wonder if that change was because of the mechanics issue or simply a choice. I can see how a race of undead could run into a lot of problems in a game if players spec'ed their units for undead combat and life mana.
JonathanStrange
PrinceWithA1000Enemies
Logic will get you nowhere!
I am a bit unsure why vampires are supposed to be undead in many settings.
They eat, they sleep, they have sex. Not activities I usually associate with the undead.
As far as I can tell the only reason vampire are usually undead is because people say so. Other words that are casually thrown around with no supporting evidence are "diseased" and "cursed".
Granted, some settings have more undead-like vampires, but those are in a minority.
They eat, they sleep, they have sex. Not activities I usually associate with the undead.
As far as I can tell the only reason vampire are usually undead is because people say so. Other words that are casually thrown around with no supporting evidence are "diseased" and "cursed".
Granted, some settings have more undead-like vampires, but those are in a minority.
SwampCow
Warlord
Wow. I stand corrected, apparently. What was I watching/reading pre-Twilight?
The lore of vampires in FFH is not classic vampire lore. They are living beings who feed on souls through a ritual, not your normal undead neck-biting bloodsuckers.
Tyrs
King
Oh vampires... Classically undead because the original myths for Eastern Europe blamed them for unknow deaths. Corpses tend to bloat, and skin retracted from the fingers, which appears as if the nails continued to grow after death, and at the gums, causing the fang like appearance. So, if someone died for no apparent reason, the logical thing to do was dig up a fresh corpse that looks right and stab it with a wooden stake.
Alternatively, Anne Rice vampire novels (much older than Twilight), on which a lot of vampire myth is based, had undead vampires, because they died and were reborn.
FfH has its own very unique lore, part of its awesomeness, vampires included.
Alternatively, Anne Rice vampire novels (much older than Twilight), on which a lot of vampire myth is based, had undead vampires, because they died and were reborn.
FfH has its own very unique lore, part of its awesomeness, vampires included.
Because in most (from what I know) settings vampirism is a state you have after dying (hence they're usually undead). At least from my experience it's usually like this: A vampire attacks a human being and sucks his/her blood, killing that person. Then that person comes back to "life" as a new vampire. And so on.
Such a death is clean, for example the brain is not damaged, so vampires still can have such desires and needs post-dying. Not counting the damage from the whole loss-of-blood-and-dying -thing, of course, but if there are vampires in the first place, it doesn't need to be all scientific.
But it's completely up to the author of course.
By that logic any hero you resurrect with Life III should be undead. As should anyone who has ever been clinically dead.
And, frankly, so should anyone who ever been mistaken for dead after a casual examination.
If you take the time to be sure; drive a steak through their heart, shotgun blast to the back of the head, cut off the head and boil it in vinegar, burn the corpse; vampires tend to stay dead. A Lich might be inconvenienced, but I wouldn't put it past him to shove a wraith up where you might be inconvenienced.
Another thing that counts against undeadness is the distinct lack of rotting flesh hanging off yellowing bones.
Those bloated corpses from folklore have that going at least.
( And yes, it is up to the author. I just wish that they could include some evidence of undeaditude beyond: "Because I say so. Nyah!" )
Edit:
And the best vampire setting is clearly Nosgoth (or Blood Omen or Legacy of Kain). Kain is such a badass he makes Chuck Norris look like a teletubby. Heck, Vorador is such a badass he makes Chuck Norris look like a teletubby, and he's a minor player.
And, frankly, so should anyone who ever been mistaken for dead after a casual examination.
If you take the time to be sure; drive a steak through their heart, shotgun blast to the back of the head, cut off the head and boil it in vinegar, burn the corpse; vampires tend to stay dead. A Lich might be inconvenienced, but I wouldn't put it past him to shove a wraith up where you might be inconvenienced.
Another thing that counts against undeadness is the distinct lack of rotting flesh hanging off yellowing bones.
Those bloated corpses from folklore have that going at least.
( And yes, it is up to the author. I just wish that they could include some evidence of undeaditude beyond: "Because I say so. Nyah!" )
Edit:
And the best vampire setting is clearly Nosgoth (or Blood Omen or Legacy of Kain). Kain is such a badass he makes Chuck Norris look like a teletubby. Heck, Vorador is such a badass he makes Chuck Norris look like a teletubby, and he's a minor player.
Luckmann
Esusian Epicure
It should be noted that Vampires are vampires by choice. It's supposedly a 'truly dark' ritual that feeds not only on the blood of the "victim" but also on their soul. It needs to be repeated and maintained once in a while, as far as I know. If I'm wrong, I'm sure the Magister will show up and correct me. 
My personal favourite setting of vampires has to be Vampire: The Masquerade.
I mean, just because the average person refers to them as "those undead bloodsuckers" doesn't mean that they are actually undead. It may just be a general reference to their nature or folklore influence. Obviously, coming back from the dead alone is a pretty dodgy excuse to call something undead, unless you're some kind of inbred hick screaming "witch! witch!" at the local healer/doctor/shaman's house.
In some settings, they're not 'true' undead, yet referred to as undead anyway (most of these rarely ever have true undead). There's actually not -that- many settings where they are truly undead. It's usually some kind of disease, or curse, or god-knows-what. In others it's just an evolutionary quirk. In Fall from Heaven, it just happens to be a state of being brought about by a ritual.
My personal favourite setting of vampires has to be Vampire: The Masquerade.
It depends on how it's presented, in my opinion. The fact that they are referred to as undeads in a number of settings without actually being undead (arguably, of course - what constitutes actual undeadedness?) can be attributed to any number of reasons. It is only of it's written in an omniscent form (i.e. "vampires are undead") that I'd like some kind of explenation as to why they would be considered undead (if not, in context, blatantly obvious).
I mean, just because the average person refers to them as "those undead bloodsuckers" doesn't mean that they are actually undead. It may just be a general reference to their nature or folklore influence. Obviously, coming back from the dead alone is a pretty dodgy excuse to call something undead, unless you're some kind of inbred hick screaming "witch! witch!" at the local healer/doctor/shaman's house.
Tyrs
King
Well, Nikki Sixx is clearly a zombie. Undead is an oddly hard to define term. Sometimes someone comes back to life and its a miracle of life, other times they come back and its an abomination of death. Very strange.
Edit:My favorite is Masquerade too
Edit:My favorite is Masquerade too
Luckmann
Esusian Epicure
As a rule of thumb, I consider undeads those that have come alive while their soul has passed on. I.e. in a Resurrection, you revive someone fully, restoring their soul and mending whatever killed them. In a Reanimation, you just raise someone from the dead, without restoring the soul or making sure that their soul is restored.
As a rule of thumb. The specifics differs greatly from setting to setting.
Kael
Deity
Its hard to find an ancient culture that doesn't have a vampire myth of some sort (though they called them different things). Some were undead, some were very alive. I wish I can say that we invented the living vampire concept, but thats far from true.
In FfH vampires were the most requested addition during FfH1. The Calabim were the first civ designed, and they were largely designed around a single unit. That design hasnt changed since the first release of FfH2.
The civilizations are driven by a design grid. Even though we like vampires they wouldnt have been in if they didnt fill a design need (function leads to flavor, not the other way around). For us that meant the design grid said Aeron, god of murder -> dominion of the body -> ? Civilization.
It was actually a very easy decision, as I mentioned it was the first civ we picked. But Aeron was cruel and calculating, methodical and powerful. Not overt like Camulous, not involved in massive wars, he comes for you from the shadows, he is the god of assassins. So these are a dark, subtely powerful people. Body gives us blood, passion (but not ideological like Bhall, more base) and flesh. Because they epitomize body magic they should be perfect of form and beautiful, and because they epitomize Aeron they should be swift, strong and cruel.
Vampires were the perfect choice. But the design grid lead us to a specific implementation for them which became the Calabim. They are alive because they represent body magic, they are driven by the desires of the flesh because of this, they are cruel and punishing because of Aeron.
Hope that helps.
In FfH vampires were the most requested addition during FfH1. The Calabim were the first civ designed, and they were largely designed around a single unit. That design hasnt changed since the first release of FfH2.
The civilizations are driven by a design grid. Even though we like vampires they wouldnt have been in if they didnt fill a design need (function leads to flavor, not the other way around). For us that meant the design grid said Aeron, god of murder -> dominion of the body -> ? Civilization.
It was actually a very easy decision, as I mentioned it was the first civ we picked. But Aeron was cruel and calculating, methodical and powerful. Not overt like Camulous, not involved in massive wars, he comes for you from the shadows, he is the god of assassins. So these are a dark, subtely powerful people. Body gives us blood, passion (but not ideological like Bhall, more base) and flesh. Because they epitomize body magic they should be perfect of form and beautiful, and because they epitomize Aeron they should be swift, strong and cruel.
Vampires were the perfect choice. But the design grid lead us to a specific implementation for them which became the Calabim. They are alive because they represent body magic, they are driven by the desires of the flesh because of this, they are cruel and punishing because of Aeron.
Hope that helps.
sharper_knives
Chieftain
- Joined
- Feb 16, 2009
- Messages
- 22
Not just deaths, but anything unfortunate. Crops failed? Vampire. Goat got sick? Vampire.
The cure was usually "find most recently deceased person and stab them with a stake and scatter their pieces".
