Timing of Golden Ages

[Culture Bomb]

While in general the good players recommend "good stuff now > great stuff later," this doesn't always seem to apply with starting Golden Ages; I often see players saving a GP until they want to make multiple civic changes or generate lots of GPP through pacifism + caste.

I'm thinking particularly about the Great Artist from getting to Music first. At this point, I probably won't have Philosophy yet so pacifism is not an option, and there aren't necessarily any other civic changes I need to make. (Maybe this is a flaw in my play, as if I was more focussed on generating Great Scientists I could have bulbed Philosophy by that point.)

Nevertheless, I often feel like it is worth starting a Golden Age straight away - the bonus hammers help me build Great Library, National Epic or MOM quicker, the bonus commerce can turn around a struggling economy, and possibly get me to Civil Service (making the civic change available while still in the Golden Age.)

The other thing about the Great Artist from music is that with the right combination of techs (if you tech Drama after music and trade for Monotheism) AFAIK he should be able to bulb Theology. I'm wondering if this might be a viable alternative to starting a Golden Age if I want to convert to Theocracy to start a war.

 

[noto2]

You don't have to save golden ages for a set point in time, every game is different. As you point out, you might want to use one to secure a key wonder or to switch to war civics in preparation for a war. Generally, however, I notice there are certain stages in the game where several civics changes will happen in close succession - like OR and HR, or BUR/caste or FR/FS, or US/eman. These are usually the times when I will run a golden age.

 

[TiglathPileser]

If your land has lots of good tiles it's often worthwhile to wait to grow your cities onto them before popping the golden age, no point starting it before then if you are just interested in production and economic gains rather than a tactical goal for it.

As an aside, not many people realise that the type of tiles you work to optimise production changes during golden ages, and you should adjust the micro in all your cities accordingly. Normally, whipping off 3f irrigated grassland gives better production than working grassy mines below size 12 and plains mines below size 20, but during a GA working 2f2h plains farms and 1f4h or 5h mines gives better production than growing on 3f tiles with the intention to whip at a later date. So obviously when it comes to pure production you should minimise the use of the whip until a golden age runs out.

 

[The Oz-Man]

I just about always save the Music GA for a post Liberalism/Military Tradition Golden Age to switch into Theocracy/Free Speech and produce crazy amounts of Cuirs. If I've got enough cities at that point, I'll often use this GA to power along the Taj if it's still out there. It's possible to get two or three consecutive Golden Ages if you play your cards right at this point, and I'd say at anything Emperor or lower that can win you the game by itself.

 

[ben-jammin]

The best use of the great artist powered golden age on immortal or deity is when you can switch into CS and pacifism plus the religion that will allow pacifism to work in your GP farm(s). Obviously you'd wait for the MoM if you were seriously planning on getting it. You also ideally want your GP farm(s) to have their food bin nearly full because the cities will be in starvation for as much of the GA as possible without actually losing population.

The tile bonus the GA gives you is really secondary to the double GPP. That is what you need to leverage. Pump out as many GPP as you can in any cities that will be able to actually pop a great person. If you have the great library and national epic in the same city, you may not have any other cities that can keep up with that GPP pace so you'll only have one city producing them. In other circumstances you coul dhave GPs pop in two different cities during your golden age, wit ha third city producing one soon after, and then one (or both) of the first two cities producing the next one for 4-5 GPs in under 20 turns.

 

[cseanny]

In most cases, by the time I start my 1st GA I've already been running Mon/Bureau/Slavery/OR so I'm not saving any turns for Civic changes. So the timing. I normally start my 1st GA in the 100 AD - 300 AD time frame and all cities already have the infrastructure I've planned for. I.E., unit pumps already have barracks/stables, MoM has been finished, TGL and NE are already in place (2 different cities to generate more great people), and in general each city has already reached the population needed for the best unit pump or great person generation.

During a 12 turn GA and while running Caste/Pacifism (non-Philo leader) my norm is 4-5 great people. If its 4 I usually generate my 5th 1-2 turns after the GA. I prefer to stay in Caste/Pacifism and generate an additional 2-3 great people before changing civics......which is usually around the time I reach Economics on my way to Rifles. At this point I prefer civics of Mon/Bureau/Caste/Fm/Fr.

 

[simishag]

You don't have to save golden ages for a set point in time, every game is different. As you point out, you might want to use one to secure a key wonder or to switch to war civics in preparation for a war. Generally, however, I notice there are certain stages in the game where several civics changes will happen in close succession - like OR and HR, or BUR/caste or FR/FS, or US/eman. These are usually the times when I will run a golden age.

Exactly. For non-Spiritual civs, the timing of civic changes can be tricky to manage. Consider the number of civic changes that occur in the game. Each change costs 1 turn of anarchy, and later in the game, changing multiple civics at once costs 2 or more turns. This could add up to 5 or more turns of anarchy in a game, not something to ignore lightly. Using a GP for GA works very well in the Renaissance-Industrial eras, where you might want to change as many as 3 or 4 civics all at once.

There are also some creative ways to use a GA from GP. You can switch into Pacifism and/or Caste at the beginning of a GA to maximize GPP, and then switch back out on the final GA turn. If you're planning a late game war, you can use a GA to switch into civics like Police State, Vassalage and Theocracy to build improved units faster, although this can take some careful build planning to maximize the effectiveness of the GA.

I wouldn't save a GP for 100 turns or anything, but it's often a wise move to keep it in the pocket for a few turns until you can maximize its usefulness.

 

[Zx Zero Zx]

You want to be able to maximize the efficiency of a GA is why you save it. The GA will always provide you with a boost, but say you could either use it now or in 10 turns for a much larger boost that would allow you to snowball harder. If you are in a situation where you have to use it now to gain an advantage on the AI to snowball then you use it now, but if you can save it for later, and gain a much much larger advantage then save it.

 

[elmurcis]

I almost always will save Golden Age for later period in game (usually for time when World War is going to begin..)... Simple rule is that as more population I have, as more tiles I work, as bigger bonus will be from GA.. And for me time when I need every hammer/commerce I can get is when I get Rifling - that time I *must* 2x or 3x my military power in very short time (before I'm always below average, after almost always I become power #1), and than... yeah, wars can begin (CR2 Mace -> Rifle, amazing war machine )

 

[noto2]

I don't get the hype over converting CR melee units to rifles. Heck..even in the middle ages I rarely give a mace a CR promotion. The only time I use CR is if it's extremely early game, we're talking before catapults, and I'm doing an axe/sword rush. Oh, and it goes on swords too, since attacking cities is their only function. Once I have macemen and catas/trebs the siege units get CR and do most of the damage attacking cities, my maces can clean up with combat. I'd rather my macemen survive in field battles, siege does the CR work anyway. This is even more true of rifles. I need my rifles to have combat, and perhaps pinch, to survive being attacked in the field. Cannons will take city defenders down to 1/2 hp, anything will clean up after that.

 

[NetGear]

it depends. i would GA earlier if I could since earlier benefits always snowball better in this game.

But from my tiles I don't really benefit much since you need to be working hammers or commerce. And in early turns im mostly growing and whipping so running mostly food instead. It's just better to do it later with matured cities when it comes to GA.

 

[elmurcis]

I don't get the hype over converting CR melee units to rifles. Heck..even in the middle ages I rarely give a mace a CR promotion. The only time I use CR is if it's extremely early game, we're talking before catapults, and I'm doing an axe/sword rush. Oh, and it goes on swords too, since attacking cities is their only function. Once I have macemen and catas/trebs the siege units get CR and do most of the damage attacking cities, my maces can clean up with combat. I'd rather my macemen survive in field battles, siege does the CR work anyway. This is even more true of rifles. I need my rifles to have combat, and perhaps pinch, to survive being attacked in the field. Cannons will take city defenders down to 1/2 hp, anything will clean up after that.

Its just me.. i like amphibious attacks with enemy capital and 2nd biggest city as targets.. and because siege can't attack from ships, I need direct attacking power..

 

[ben-jammin]

I don't get the hype over converting CR melee units to rifles. Heck..even in the middle ages I rarely give a mace a CR promotion. The only time I use CR is if it's extremely early game, we're talking before catapults, and I'm doing an axe/sword rush. Oh, and it goes on swords too, since attacking cities is their only function. Once I have macemen and catas/trebs the siege units get CR and do most of the damage attacking cities, my maces can clean up with combat. I'd rather my macemen survive in field battles, siege does the CR work anyway. This is even more true of rifles. I need my rifles to have combat, and perhaps pinch, to survive being attacked in the field. Cannons will take city defenders down to 1/2 hp, anything will clean up after that.

CR gives the best bonus versus any kind of unit so long as it's in a city. If you are threatening an AI city with a large stack, they will stack almost all their units there. And keep bringing more every turn. At this point you've bombarded their cultural defense down to zero, and they have no fortification bonus. This tactic works very well on the highest difficulties, where you'll often allow the AI to keep the city for a few extra turns or even re-take a city you captured so you can attack them with the CR bonuses. Which of course you cannons should also have. You can devastate hundreds of units like this.

 

[noto2]

lol, really? It makes me laugh because it would be quite funny to take the capital in the opening attack of a war...but, I don't know how you can pull that off without siege and not suffer horrible casualties. I mean, I do that with marines but....

 

[stoferb]

Well at the very least I save up enough money to run 100% science while in the GA, since you pay the same in maintaince anyway but get more beakers in return.

 

[Izuul]

I don't get the hype over converting CR melee units to rifles. Heck..even in the middle ages I rarely give a mace a CR promotion. The only time I use CR is if it's extremely early game, we're talking before catapults, and I'm doing an axe/sword rush. Oh, and it goes on swords too, since attacking cities is their only function. Once I have macemen and catas/trebs the siege units get CR and do most of the damage attacking cities, my maces can clean up with combat. I'd rather my macemen survive in field battles, siege does the CR work anyway. This is even more true of rifles. I need my rifles to have combat, and perhaps pinch, to survive being attacked in the field. Cannons will take city defenders down to 1/2 hp, anything will clean up after that.

CR rifles are awesome. Just mix some rifles with defensive promotions into the stack to defend against attacks in the field.

 

[cseanny]

CR gives the best bonus versus any kind of unit so long as it's in a city. If you are threatening an AI city with a large stack, they will stack almost all their units there.

Obviously this! When going the Rifle route simply build 25-30+ CR2 Mace, upgrade them, and own things up. Use a few spies to cause city revolt in the highest 2 culture cities (usually big stacks) and mop up. Alternatively, if you didn't plan on spies use a 4-5 CR2 Trebs to bombard and then let CR2 Rifles own. After all, they do 20.3 damage with CR2 at a point in time, even Deity AIs will have LBs/and perhaps a few musket (800-1000 AD). Obviously Rifles w/out their CR2 bonus would own any open units in the field too.

So.......why in the world wouldn't you prefer CR2 Rifles? Even when you take into account how attack/defense bonuses are applied CR2 Rifles always have a higher win percentage over LBs/Musket (in a city) than any other promotion line.

 

[noto2]

okay so how are you playing deity and upgrading 30 maces to rifles and then facing longbows?

 

[cseanny]

noto2

Seriously? It happens all the time. Well, at least facing LBs/and few Musket. I prefer to go the Cuir/Cav route but when that's not possible the timing remains pretty much the same with Rifles (in terms of facing AI units). Here's a couple of screen shots of a Pepe26, Deity, Gandhi game. http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=12060358#post12060358 . I did the same thing in the Deity forum Egypt game where I already had 3 vassals by 840 AD and would reach rifles in 4 more turns.

 

[noto2]

Hmm. I made it to immortal in the unmodded game, was getting familiar with immortal, and then I changed my game a lot. Now I play Kmod, no diplo victories, random personalities, random leader, fractal maps, and emperor difficulty. I get my butt handed to me doing that, let me tell you. I don't know how to compare BTS deity with what I play, but it's very different, that's for sure. Sure I have games with rifles vs longbows but it's certainly not something I do or even try to do every game, or even in the majority of my games.