Tips on combatting CF

poprawkz

Chieftain
Joined
Jul 21, 2002
Messages
60
Location
Phoenix, AZ
In my current game I am playing continents, standard sized map, full civs and happened to get stuck in a very bad spot at the beginning. Greece was about 10 tiles away from my capitol, and knowing they would get hoplites soon meant no immediate hope in a successful campaign against them. Romans werent too far north of me, and between was a huge section of desert unsuitable for good colonization.

Since this is my first time playing Persia I decided to go for a space race victory. In the meanwhile I decided to go for culture, I grabbed as much good land as I could and started to work on culture flipping the living 'heck' out of my neighbors.

1: Plop a city down near their borders.

2: Take a worker and join that city to increase population.

3: Set production to temple / library (in my case I chose library)

4: Disband a military unit in the city for extra shields.

Generally within 5 turns I can be working on a university or colloseum in a city. Talk about turning on the culture.

Zululand decided to go to war with me, I signed a military alliance with rome against the mongrels and let rome do the dirty work for me (rome was between our civs).

For now I concentrated on tech. No need to worry about expansion, my culture flipping borders were doing all the work. Meanwhile my inner cities had produced every kind of building available so I made them produce military units.

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Babylon had already made Leonardos Workshop. Upgrading all my defensive units in my civilization would have been expensive. Instead I started churning out musketmen and then later, riflemen and began unfortifying my towns, and sending my old immortals up to the front lines. They were great for either suicide softening of Zulu cities or disbanding for shields in my newly conquered cities. Meanwhile my military advisor was informing me that we had a massive force compared to everyone else. This involves a lot of micromanagement and is tedious, especially since I already had 20+ cities from culture flipping. However, it saved a lot of cash and quickly brought my old inadequate units to a quick and decisive use. I wrote it off as ordinance disposal.

Some interesting points.

-My inner cities can produce a Cavalry unit in 4 turns.
-In 4 turns they would produce less than 20 gold if set on wealth.
-It is cheaper under monarchy for me to create cavalry and then disband them for 20 shields than to pay for a building to be rushed.
-Rushing on the first turn causes a unit / building to be 8x more expensive
-Disbanding for shields is just as effective on the first round as any other round.

I decided I wanted to take the pyramids and the great library from the Zulus. I started making all my main cities produce cavalry and riflemen. I then marched in and took several of the Zulus key towns. After the bulk of the fighting had ended, I still had a steady stream of now useless cavalry pouring into the area. Using my disbanding scheme I turned 6 towns into producing Universities in just 7 turns.

After 10 turns I had culture flipped some nearby roman settlements that had been claimed during the war.


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Not sure how high of a difficulty level this is valid on. I'm still a beginner, I might mention also I was playing player1's mod, however up to this point in the game it didnt really have much effect other than making barbarians a real pain in my arse. (thanks player1 !!!$$!!!$$)
 
Draft rushing buildings is unfair, but if you legitly make those units with your own shields then you should be fine.
 
I actaully dont understand drafting really... Plus I have yet to research nationalism and none of my cities have yet to make it over size 6 really.
 
Originally posted by poprawkz
I actaully dont understand drafting really... Plus I have yet to research nationalism and none of my cities have yet to make it over size 6 really.

You are resaearching nationalism and none of your city is over size 6 !!! you have a problem, as soon as i reach education, all my core city are size 12 and produce about 20 shield. dont waste time making several small and worhtless city.
 
Combatting CF. . .

Since people have asked, my tip was to reduce in Editor/Culture all resistance factors to zero in the hope that will kill it or reduce it, since Firaxis refuses to at last make CF reasonable and logical.

I AM STILL PLAYING TEST GAMES. Nothing has flipped yet, but that proves nothing. Much more play is needed. If one does flip the idea does not work.

When I'm convinced one way or the other I'll post it. Soon enough.
 
Originally posted by Tassadar


You are resaearching nationalism and none of your city is over size 6 !!! you have a problem, as soon as i reach education, all my core city are size 12 and produce about 20 shield. dont waste time making several small and worhtless city.

No actually I said I *hadn't* researched nationalism yet. I have been mass producing workers and settlers to give population to newly founded cities / newly flipper cities so as to decrease the odds of them culture flipping back to the other side and to give them speed in creating libraries, temples etc. Basically any city that has produced all of its city improvements or has reached its maximum size I set to produce workers / settlers in between military units.
 
For those of us who care about reality, bad news.

Dropping in Editor, Culture, the Resistance rates to zero does NOT stop at least some Culture Flipping.

This will be great for "historic" scenarios. :p The Americans take Okinawa and Iwo Jima in 1945 - but they lose their entire offensive force because of how close it is to Tokyo and there are so many Japanese citizens there.:crazyeye:

Yea. It will be fun to see all the complaining when people bust their butts doing a scenario and it is promptly ruined by a crazy flip. I can't wait to see it.
 
Ok now one aspect of culture is driving me crazy. I thought I disabled cultural victory in my last game but apparently I didnt. I accidentally won by culture in this last game I was describing... all culture flips were in my favor except one, but I only had a single unit lost due to it... it was against babylon after I didnt have enough combat units left to disband rush my libraries. I had a crash to desktop and thats when I made my post about insane combat values. I still managed to hold 3 of the 4 cities I conquered throughout the rest of the game however.
 
I sure want to see how all you guys working on "historical" scenarios will like it when your military vanishes in a Flip. Realistic? :lol:

How about Warsaw flipping back to Germany after the Soviets take it in 1945? Okinawa flipping to Japan the same year?

"Tips" for combatting this? Here's the best tip: for scenarios let us have an OFF toggle switch in the game.
 
This will be great for "historic" scenarios. The Americans take Okinawa and Iwo Jima in 1945 - but they lose their entire offensive force because of how close it is to Tokyo and there are so many Japanese citizens there.

Iwo Jima wasn't exactly heavily populated, and Okinawa had virtually none left after the invasion was over.

How about Warsaw flipping back to Germany after the Soviets take it in 1945?

BZZZT. Even in the game, there would be no way in hell Warsaw would flip back to Germany. There were no German citizens there and no German cultural influence.
 
I think that Zouave makes a good point nonetheless. In his defense, I'll offer up my own historical example, and how it illustrates the fact that Civ3 needs adjustments re its CF flaws. I'll use the German occupation of Paris during WW2. Pertinent facts: 1) French citizens far outnumbered the Germans, 2) there was French resistance, 3) Paris was the capital, and the cultural pride of France. And yet, Paris didn't "flip" out from under the Germans - it had to be liberated by force. If these factors were present in a Civ3 game, I'd bet on CF. As if the entire occupational force of Germans, after being exposed to Parisian culture, decided to cast off their Nazi ways. Yeah, right. If only...

A similar situation happened to me in my last game. Having swept my Roman forces South into Greece, I easily conquered three small Greek towns, the last of which was just a few squares North of Athens, my main target. But did the sneaky Greeks mount their forces at the gates of this city to block my path? No. They mounted a massive attack on my newly captured Greek city just to the North of my main force, which was admittedly, not as well guarded as it should have been. They succeeded, and retook the town. The result? The city where I was staging my last major drive, a city occupied by one Roman army, a Roman leader (ready to create another army on the next turn), as well as various Roman knights, cavalry, musketmen, and legionaries, this city culture flipped back to Greece. I lost them all. (Ironic side note: I had just completed the heroic epic sw in Rome honoring the leader of the army who then turned coat!)

Perhaps it's simply sour grapes on my part, but I find this to be unrealistic, and a major flaw in the Civ3 cultural system. I honestly believe that the existence of a major military force in a city should have profound effects on whether or not CF occurs. I'm sure Paris would have loved to return to France proper during its occupation, but the major presence of German military might prevented this. Patch programmers take heed.

As things stand now, I've learned some valuable lessons in preventing CF. What seems to work best is not replacing the old government with your own, but rather, simply razing the city, turning its displaced population into slave labor, and sending in settlers of your own to build on the ruins. This assures that the population will be "pure" and it gives you a much need hand in making necessary improvements for your newly captured city.
 
Originally posted by GeneralTacticus


Iwo Jima wasn't exactly heavily populated, and Okinawa had virtually none left after the invasion was over.

BZZZT. Even in the game, there would be no way in hell Warsaw would flip back to Germany. There were no German citizens there and no German cultural influence.

Cite your source on Okinawa sating they had "virtually none" left in terms of population. There were Japanese CITIES on that island, and they weren't all evacuated or killed in a bombardment either.

"No German citizens there"?? SO WHAT??? Once the Roman city (12) of Antium flipped to me after FIVE THOUSAND YEARS of being part of Rome and having never been conquered or flipped before. Every citizen in it was Roman and it still left Rome for me (Iroquois). :crazyeye: :crazyeye:


BTW, here is MY source on Okinawa claiming that around 150,000 japanese civilians remained on the island AFTER the fighting ended. http://globalsecurity.org/military/facility/okinawa-battle.htm
 
That very CF happed to me, although I was on the bloody end of the deal. Of all the traitorous, lowhanded, wrong wrong wrong...:cry:
 
"No German citizens there"?? SO WHAT??? Once the Roman city (12) of Antium flipped to me after FIVE THOUSAND YEARS of being part of Rome and having never been conquered or flipped before. Every citizen in it was Roman and it still left Rome for me (Iroquois).

Note the second part of what I said. There would have been no German cultural influence within Warsaw's borders.

Cite your source on Okinawa sating they had "virtually none" left in terms of population. There were Japanese CITIES on that island, and they weren't all evacuated or killed in a bombardment either.

In Civ terms, they would not have had many people left on the island. Do you really think that when you bombard a size 20 city down to size 1, you've just killed 1-2 million people? No. It's an abstraction, which would also represent people being displaced from their homes, etc. I posted a thread at Apolyton a while ago on how to make this more realistic.

BTW, here is MY source on Okinawa claiming that around 150,000 japanese civilians remained on the island AFTER the fighting ended. http://globalsecurity.org/military/...nawa-battle.htm

I am prepared to concede the point on Okinawa. I was making statement based a general impression. And in any case, the civilian casualties were still pretty horrendous.

I think that Zouave makes a good point nonetheless. In his defense, I'll offer up my own historical example, and how it illustrates the fact that Civ3 needs adjustments re its CF flaws. I'll use the German occupation of Paris during WW2. Pertinent facts: 1) French citizens far outnumbered the Germans, 2) there was French resistance, 3) Paris was the capital, and the cultural pride of France. And yet, Paris didn't "flip" out from under the Germans - it had to be liberated by force. If these factors were present in a Civ3 game, I'd bet on CF. As if the entire occupational force of Germans, after being exposed to Parisian culture, decided to cast off their Nazi ways. Yeah, right. If only...

Well, for one thing, Paris DID effectively flip back to France, although admittedly this was right as the Germans were evacuating...

Anyway, I think that flipping could be made more realistic if the process were more detailed. What I take issue with is Zouave stating categorically that flipping has no historical basis. It does.
 
BTW, upwards of a third of Okinawa's civilians died, a great many impressed into front line service by the Army. I'm sure they went willing, though.

Just imagine the slaughter that might have occured in an invasion of Kyushu.
 
>><<As things stand now, I've learned some valuable lessons in preventing CF. What seems to work best is not replacing the old government with your own, but rather, simply razing the city...>><<

Razing cities is generally frowned upon by others. As an active trader, I need everyone polite so I can seperate them from as much gold as possible every turn. A civ that is polite toward you is less of a tightwad. I need them to be untightwads, as they are financing my military (I try to trade so that my military cost per turn is deferred by income from other civs). Let the English pay for the bombers, I say. I'll save the rest for rushes and upgrades.

Anyway, I've learned a thing about culture-flipping, too:--

After taking a city, garrison the Hell out of it. Then go in, convert all non-resisting citizens to entertainers--and remember to do this every turn, because they'll automatically want to work for food--damn them for wishing to live. As the city's population drops, the garrison can be reduced proportionately. Continue starving them till city is size 1, then permit the city to grow again.

As the population comes back, new citizens will be yours--not the foreign nationalists. Once you outnumber them in the city, the remaining foreigners are assimilated into your culture, meaning, they "forget" that they were, once, the rival.

True, cities 6-12 have a higher defense value, but by the time one gets down below six, I've already moved the front far enough away where the AI is trying to recapture the last city I've taken.

As the population decreases, fewer defenders are required to garrison to keep from flipping. Fewer defenders making sure the city doesn't flip are freed them up to be where I need them most: on the front lines, digging in and protecting my offensive units and securing my artillery.

So says me, your mileage may vary.


Later!

--The Clown to the Left
 
Almost any newly captured city with a lot of population will have some starvation. It's difficult to keep their restive population content! Joining a worker helps to hold the city; CF is reduced if some of the citizens are yours. But if the city is in starvation, your citizen might be the one to starve.

Reducing the number of culture borders of the original owner that butt up against the newly captured city's culture border is important. This will reduce the chance of CF. About the only way to do this is to conquer more cities. (Of course if you completely take over the civ, there's no chance of CF to that civ! ;) )

Disbanding units to build city improvements (temple, e.g.) is a good idea. You get 1/4 of the original shield cost of the unit (rounded down) applied to your new build. This closely matches the 4:1 ratio of gold:shields that you pay to rush the job. (Except under Despotism and Communism where rushing uses citizens!) You can't rush while there are Resisters, but you can disband! If you've just started a new build, and have no Resisters, you can disband a unit, and then rush the build. This avoids the initial 8:1 cost for a new build with no shields in the build box, and allows you to build something in one turn. Setting a lot of your cities to building Wealth is inefficient. You convert 4:1 (8:1 without Economics) shields to gold, and then if you rush build something, you convert 4:1 gold to shields. Net effect is a 16:1 (at best) shield use. Now if you build a unit, and then disband it, you get 4:1 shield use, but you do have to pay maintenance on the unit you build until you disband it. I think this works out a lot better, particularly with high shield cost units (like Battleships! :D )

Finally, don't stack all your units in the city. Let it flip; if it does, retake the 1 defensive unit that's in there. If it's not likely to be retaken, I'll put a 1 hp unit in the city to heal up faster. After it's healed, I rotate another in. If the city flips, I might have lost the unit if it were in the field anyway, so it's not a big loss.
 
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