Not sure. I think Inv/Nav "remove a bonus" to trade, rather than "penalize trade". In other words, we may start at 200%, rather than 100%. I guess we can sort this out with a little old fashioned testing, maybe in Cheat Mode. I'm a little busy for the next few days, but will give this a try ASAP.
Tips & Tricks for New Players
- Thread starter ElephantU
- Start date
Not sure. I think Inv/Nav "remove a bonus" to trade, rather than "penalize trade". In other words, we may start at 200%, rather than 100%. I guess we can sort this out with a little old fashioned testing, maybe in Cheat Mode. I'm a little busy for the next few days, but will give this a try ASAP.
Regarding the 1/3 penalty for discovering flight...
Don't forget that your SSC will lose even more than 1/3 after flight. This is due to the reduction of trade arrows generated by the Colossus.
Here are a couple of actual trade routes that I had during a replay of GOTM 110. While I was playing, I allowed the discovery of flight. I then went back, turned off all science (so flight was not discovered) and then made the deliveries.
Domestic / Off Continent Coal to the SSC, Pre-Flight 810g, Post-Flight 432g, 46.6% loss
undemanded, non-SSC Oil to AI, Pre-Flight 178, Post-Flight 90g, 49.4% loss ****
SSC Hides to AI, Pre-Flight 1365, Post-Flight 808 40.8% loss
Non-SSC Silver to AI, Pre-Flight 550, Post-Flight 367 33.3% loss
undemanded, Non-SSC Gold to AI, Pre-Flight 268, Post-Flight 179, 33.2% loss
Non-SSC Gold to AI, Pre-Flight 216, Post-Flight 112, 48,1% loss ****
So the SSC seems to be affected to a much larger degree. Before Flight the SSC had 3 trade routes worth 22, 12 and 10 and a total of 135 arrows. After flight was discovered, the trade routes dropped to 19, 9 and and the total arrows dropped to 103.
The two examples with **** were non-SSC deliveries that decreased by a lot more than 33%. I have no real explanation for these. It could be noted that for the second one (Demanded Gold) the source and destination were not very far apart.
Don't forget that your SSC will lose even more than 1/3 after flight. This is due to the reduction of trade arrows generated by the Colossus.
Here are a couple of actual trade routes that I had during a replay of GOTM 110. While I was playing, I allowed the discovery of flight. I then went back, turned off all science (so flight was not discovered) and then made the deliveries.
Domestic / Off Continent Coal to the SSC, Pre-Flight 810g, Post-Flight 432g, 46.6% loss
undemanded, non-SSC Oil to AI, Pre-Flight 178, Post-Flight 90g, 49.4% loss ****
SSC Hides to AI, Pre-Flight 1365, Post-Flight 808 40.8% loss
Non-SSC Silver to AI, Pre-Flight 550, Post-Flight 367 33.3% loss
undemanded, Non-SSC Gold to AI, Pre-Flight 268, Post-Flight 179, 33.2% loss
Non-SSC Gold to AI, Pre-Flight 216, Post-Flight 112, 48,1% loss ****
So the SSC seems to be affected to a much larger degree. Before Flight the SSC had 3 trade routes worth 22, 12 and 10 and a total of 135 arrows. After flight was discovered, the trade routes dropped to 19, 9 and and the total arrows dropped to 103.
The two examples with **** were non-SSC deliveries that decreased by a lot more than 33%. I have no real explanation for these. It could be noted that for the second one (Demanded Gold) the source and destination were not very far apart.
Thanks for the experiment haleewud. We indeed have a puzzle here.
The two non-SSC 33% loss in trade data are, as you pointed out, to be expected.
The two non-SSC larger than 33% loss in trade data are, as you pointed out, a puzzle.
The SSC data looks puzzling at first glance too. Why such significantly different reductions (41% in one case and 47% in the other). My guess is that the pre flight delivery in the 41% case was capped and the other one was not.
Colossus adds an arrow every where there is one. Since by then you have superhighways all non-specials, whether roaded or ocean, produce 3 arrows without and 4 arrows with Colossus. Thus expiration of Colossus causes a slightly more than 3/4 reduction in base arrows. The "slightly more than" is because of trade specials and rivers. 3/4*2/3 for flight effect gives you slightly more than one half which matches your observation of 53%.
The two non-SSC 33% loss in trade data are, as you pointed out, to be expected.
The two non-SSC larger than 33% loss in trade data are, as you pointed out, a puzzle.
The SSC data looks puzzling at first glance too. Why such significantly different reductions (41% in one case and 47% in the other). My guess is that the pre flight delivery in the 41% case was capped and the other one was not.
Colossus adds an arrow every where there is one. Since by then you have superhighways all non-specials, whether roaded or ocean, produce 3 arrows without and 4 arrows with Colossus. Thus expiration of Colossus causes a slightly more than 3/4 reduction in base arrows. The "slightly more than" is because of trade specials and rivers. 3/4*2/3 for flight effect gives you slightly more than one half which matches your observation of 53%.
WildPony
Warlord
WildPony
Warlord
Yes, nice quick thinking
. Right, i would have expected every non SSC trade to come in at -33.3%. Nothing else makes an ounce of sense
. Any chance the ai changed it's squares?I have solved the issue.
In the first case (Undemanded Oil...), I misread my log. In the game, I actually delivered before flight was discovered. When I reloaded and delayed the delivery until after flight, I somehow managed to deliver it to a different city. When I figured this out and delivered to the correct city the payouts become 178 versus 118. A reduction of 60 out of 178 is very close to 1/3.
In the second case (demanded gold), when I was playing I actually delivered after flight was discovered. It looks like I forgot to maximize trade in the producing city before making the delivery. I reloaded my save file and maximized trade. Payouts became 216 versus 144. This is also a 1/3 reduction.
In the first case (Undemanded Oil...), I misread my log. In the game, I actually delivered before flight was discovered. When I reloaded and delayed the delivery until after flight, I somehow managed to deliver it to a different city. When I figured this out and delivered to the correct city the payouts become 178 versus 118. A reduction of 60 out of 178 is very close to 1/3.
In the second case (demanded gold), when I was playing I actually delivered after flight was discovered. It looks like I forgot to maximize trade in the producing city before making the delivery. I reloaded my save file and maximized trade. Payouts became 216 versus 144. This is also a 1/3 reduction.
Thanks for the excellent detective work! If I understand this correctly, it shows that the penalties are multiplicative. Otherwise, a reduction from 2/3 [I assume you have already taken the RR penalty] to 1/3 would appear to be a 50% reduction in your tests.
WildPony
Warlord
Here is something that I haven't heard mentioned.
Yes there is a 1/3 reduction after RR is discovered. But shortly after RR, I usually discover "The Corporation". If you have Leo's, all of your vans will upgrade to trucks. Even if you don't your new 'vans' will be built as trucks. Trucks have a much better delivery bonus.
Here are 2 examples. My government is Democracy.
Domestic Off-Shore Demanded Gold to the SSC
Source is size 3 with 16 trade arrows (4 from a previous Spice route with the SSC which is not one of the SSC's routes)
SSC is size 25 with Colossus, MPE, Cope's, Shake's and Newton's. 88 trade arrows (28 from foreign cities).
Pre "Corp" bonus is 266, Post "Corp" bonus is 398.
Foreign, off-shore demanded silver
My city is size 7 with 30 arrows (7 from foreign routes).
Destination is American Capital, Government is Republic. Size 10, 44 arrows, 25 are from existing routes from my cities (2 from the SSC for 10 each). A little 'cheat mode' to verify numbers.
Pre "Corp" bonus is 257, Post "Corp" bonus is 385.
It seems as though Corp gives back the 1/3 that was taken away by RR.
Yes there is a 1/3 reduction after RR is discovered. But shortly after RR, I usually discover "The Corporation". If you have Leo's, all of your vans will upgrade to trucks. Even if you don't your new 'vans' will be built as trucks. Trucks have a much better delivery bonus.
Here are 2 examples. My government is Democracy.
Domestic Off-Shore Demanded Gold to the SSC
Source is size 3 with 16 trade arrows (4 from a previous Spice route with the SSC which is not one of the SSC's routes)
SSC is size 25 with Colossus, MPE, Cope's, Shake's and Newton's. 88 trade arrows (28 from foreign cities).
Pre "Corp" bonus is 266, Post "Corp" bonus is 398.
Foreign, off-shore demanded silver
My city is size 7 with 30 arrows (7 from foreign routes).
Destination is American Capital, Government is Republic. Size 10, 44 arrows, 25 are from existing routes from my cities (2 from the SSC for 10 each). A little 'cheat mode' to verify numbers.
Pre "Corp" bonus is 257, Post "Corp" bonus is 385.
It seems as though Corp gives back the 1/3 that was taken away by RR.
Great guide! I have been playing Civ2 for many years but I'm always pleasantly surprised when I learn a new technique or secret of the game. I'm printing off a copy of the guide to read through when it gets quiet at work. It looks like a good read 
wujinlong
Chieftain
Thank you. for Guide. ElephantU
starlifter
Deity
- Joined
- Jun 17, 2001
- Messages
- 4,210
RUBBER BANDS
So he decided on the "rubber band" (his quoted term). The AIs are attached with rubber bands to the human, always pulling them to the human, and he human to the AI. If the AI was behind, the game would cheat (force) the AI to close the gap. Ahead, and (believe it or not) the AI will be punished. The level of play affects the strength of this Rubber Band. This is what the Poly guys likely saw. This kept the game 'competitive' if played according the simple-minded (from 2001 and later perspective) assumptions and conditions carved in the Civ II manual and Civ II Prima guide.
However, even Brian did not quite get what the raw math could mean in a PD, and his Rubber Band mechanism cannot cope with the resource multiplication in WLTPD pop growth. This is exactly why WLTP was removed in later Civs, most notably in Civ IV.
There was not the CPU cycle budget available to 'think' and keep AI cities celebrating. Civ II AI is not real AI, its just made to resemble it using programming tricks (resource scaling based on the rubber band, eg). We call it AI cheats. Civ IV has a 'real' AI. But the LCD platform had about 50 times the assumed customer PC power of Civ II. Even slow 2010 Smart phones are 5x to 30x more powerful than the LCD Civ II PC. Doubtless Brian R would code more 'thinking' into the game with the higher baseline CPU cycles and instruction sets available today.
CRUISE MISSILES & AEGIS/BATTLESHIPS
An AEGIS Cruiser has D=8. If an Air Unit attacks it, then AEGIS has D=24. If a Cruise Missile (or Nuke) attacks it, then D=40. If veteran, the numbers are 28 and 44. Depending on veterancy and health, either the BB or the AC could defend. A weak BB means an AC will defend. The BB gets no bonus. In real life, a CM will not hit an American BB, as we have the defenses to shoot them down. But in Civ 2, the BB gets no respect from CMs, and no D bonus.
A/D/H/F (ADHF, Attack Defense HitPoints, FirePower) numbers
BB: 12/12/4/2
AEGIS: 8/8/3/2
CM: 18/0/1/3
This means a CM usually (but not always) take a good chunk out of a BB, and nicks a Vet Aegis.
TRADE
It works like this:
Phase 1: 200% bonus of Normal trade. This occurs from start through Game Turn 200 (GT200), or until either Navigation or Invention is discovered. The instant any of these 3 conditions is true, the "double value" of Trade is cancelled. You want to delay these 3 things as long as possible in most "power" games. Use Marco Polo to ensure this end.
Phase 2: From the moment GT200, Nav, or Inv is reached, trade values are "Normal". This ends as long as RR is not discovered by any Civ.
Phase 3: As long as RR is known, the Trade values are 2/3 (66.7%) of the Normal. This ends when Flight is discovered.
Phase 4: Post-flight: Trade is 1/3 (33.3%) of Normal.
Example: A caravan that is worth 300g+300s "Normal" (Phase 2) is worth:
Phase 1: 600
Phase 2: 300 (Normal)
Phase 3: 200
Phase 4: 100
You compensate for this 6X fluctuation by City Trade Arrows, Improvements, Roads, RRs, Overseas, Foreign, Unit Type, and Distance.
In fact, it is just plain 200%, 100%, 67%, and 33% of "Normal". Simple actually.
Fluctuations can be caused by an enemy unit interrupting the return path for the trade route. An enemy unit sitting on a path, will stop the route bonus. Another fluctuation issue occurs at Flight with Colossus expiration. This in turn affects route bonuses. The Colossus counts to Base Trade, and so do arrow granted by roads and Superhighways. A wine or gold, plus road and SH, will grant a 50% bonus for the trade in that tile. Normally a tile has 2 (or 3 with river and road). 50% of 2 is 1, and 50% of 3 is 1. Ergo SH grants 'only' one arrow for most tiles. But if a tile has 4 or more TAs, then SH will grant more than one extra arrow. Some tiles (like spice, wine, gold, etc.) give trade bonuses. Using Wine and Gold for comparison:
With Colossus (Before Flight)
Road (G/P)+Dem/Rep, Wine, SH, : (1+1+1+4)*1.5=10 arrows
Road (G/P)+Dem/Rep, GOLD, SH, : (1+1+1+5)*1.5=12 arrows
Road (G/P)+Dem/Rep, Wine, SH, River: (1+1+1+1+4)*1.5=12 arrows
Road (G/P)+Dem/Rep, GOLD, SH, River: (1+1+1+1+5)*1.5=13 arrows
Without Colossus
Road (G/P)+Dem/Rep, Wine, SH, : (1+1+4)*1.5=9 arrows
Road (G/P)+Dem/Rep, GOLD, SH, : (1+1+5)*1.5=10 arrows
Road (G/P)+Dem/Rep, Wine, SH, River: (1+1+1+4)*1.5=10 arrows
Road (G/P)+Dem/Rep, GOLD, SH, River: (1+1+1+5)*1.5=12 arrows
This fluctuation will cause trade route arrows to be altered based on the change in base trade, which is amplified by SH if there are any river/wine/gold/spice/etc. tiles. The end effect is that hitting flight and losing colossus, will affect route values with the Colossus city..
Not exactly. But it might seem that way. Brian Reynolds had his own idea about how (circa late 1990's 'slow' lowest common denominator PC era) to keep a AI competitive and thus keep a human interested in the game. Too easy, and the human would be bored and quit. Too hard, and frustrated and quit.
So he decided on the "rubber band" (his quoted term). The AIs are attached with rubber bands to the human, always pulling them to the human, and he human to the AI. If the AI was behind, the game would cheat (force) the AI to close the gap. Ahead, and (believe it or not) the AI will be punished. The level of play affects the strength of this Rubber Band. This is what the Poly guys likely saw. This kept the game 'competitive' if played according the simple-minded (from 2001 and later perspective) assumptions and conditions carved in the Civ II manual and Civ II Prima guide.
However, even Brian did not quite get what the raw math could mean in a PD, and his Rubber Band mechanism cannot cope with the resource multiplication in WLTPD pop growth. This is exactly why WLTP was removed in later Civs, most notably in Civ IV.
There was not the CPU cycle budget available to 'think' and keep AI cities celebrating. Civ II AI is not real AI, its just made to resemble it using programming tricks (resource scaling based on the rubber band, eg). We call it AI cheats. Civ IV has a 'real' AI. But the LCD platform had about 50 times the assumed customer PC power of Civ II. Even slow 2010 Smart phones are 5x to 30x more powerful than the LCD Civ II PC. Doubtless Brian R would code more 'thinking' into the game with the higher baseline CPU cycles and instruction sets available today.
CRUISE MISSILES & AEGIS/BATTLESHIPS
This is not how Civ 2 works. Battleships are the prime target of CMs. However, in a stack, the "best" unit defends the stack. The AI does not target specific units in a stack, the Unit is selected by 'best defense' automatically.
An AEGIS Cruiser has D=8. If an Air Unit attacks it, then AEGIS has D=24. If a Cruise Missile (or Nuke) attacks it, then D=40. If veteran, the numbers are 28 and 44. Depending on veterancy and health, either the BB or the AC could defend. A weak BB means an AC will defend. The BB gets no bonus. In real life, a CM will not hit an American BB, as we have the defenses to shoot them down. But in Civ 2, the BB gets no respect from CMs, and no D bonus.
A/D/H/F (ADHF, Attack Defense HitPoints, FirePower) numbers
BB: 12/12/4/2
AEGIS: 8/8/3/2
CM: 18/0/1/3
This means a CM usually (but not always) take a good chunk out of a BB, and nicks a Vet Aegis.
TRADE
No, of course ... not !
It works like this:
Phase 1: 200% bonus of Normal trade. This occurs from start through Game Turn 200 (GT200), or until either Navigation or Invention is discovered. The instant any of these 3 conditions is true, the "double value" of Trade is cancelled. You want to delay these 3 things as long as possible in most "power" games. Use Marco Polo to ensure this end.
Phase 2: From the moment GT200, Nav, or Inv is reached, trade values are "Normal". This ends as long as RR is not discovered by any Civ.
Phase 3: As long as RR is known, the Trade values are 2/3 (66.7%) of the Normal. This ends when Flight is discovered.
Phase 4: Post-flight: Trade is 1/3 (33.3%) of Normal.
Example: A caravan that is worth 300g+300s "Normal" (Phase 2) is worth:
Phase 1: 600
Phase 2: 300 (Normal)
Phase 3: 200
Phase 4: 100
You compensate for this 6X fluctuation by City Trade Arrows, Improvements, Roads, RRs, Overseas, Foreign, Unit Type, and Distance.
That is correct. As stated above, there is even more to it, but this is a subset.
The answer is in the city Trade Arrows. There is both base, and bonus arrows. Myself and other have posted the actual (and exact) mechanics of this computation. Some links can be found via this.
No, technically neither. The result is computed relative to the "Normal" or baseline trade (Phase 2, above). That result is 200%, 100%, 67%, or 33% of the Normal trade.
People get confused sometimes. This is correct in result, but it is actually done by taking 67% of the Normal. The confusion comes when some say there is a 1/3 reduction after Flight. This is not true since most see this as "One third of two thirds" (e.g., multiplied), and is the cause of some of the hand-wringing in this thread. It is a 1/3 chunk of Normal, removed (which seems like a 50% cut, relative to the Phase 3 RR era values, compared to post-flight).
In fact, it is just plain 200%, 100%, 67%, and 33% of "Normal". Simple actually.
Fluctuations can be caused by an enemy unit interrupting the return path for the trade route. An enemy unit sitting on a path, will stop the route bonus. Another fluctuation issue occurs at Flight with Colossus expiration. This in turn affects route bonuses. The Colossus counts to Base Trade, and so do arrow granted by roads and Superhighways. A wine or gold, plus road and SH, will grant a 50% bonus for the trade in that tile. Normally a tile has 2 (or 3 with river and road). 50% of 2 is 1, and 50% of 3 is 1. Ergo SH grants 'only' one arrow for most tiles. But if a tile has 4 or more TAs, then SH will grant more than one extra arrow. Some tiles (like spice, wine, gold, etc.) give trade bonuses. Using Wine and Gold for comparison:
With Colossus (Before Flight)
Road (G/P)+Dem/Rep, Wine, SH, : (1+1+1+4)*1.5=10 arrows
Road (G/P)+Dem/Rep, GOLD, SH, : (1+1+1+5)*1.5=12 arrows
Road (G/P)+Dem/Rep, Wine, SH, River: (1+1+1+1+4)*1.5=12 arrows
Road (G/P)+Dem/Rep, GOLD, SH, River: (1+1+1+1+5)*1.5=13 arrows
Without Colossus
Road (G/P)+Dem/Rep, Wine, SH, : (1+1+4)*1.5=9 arrows
Road (G/P)+Dem/Rep, GOLD, SH, : (1+1+5)*1.5=10 arrows
Road (G/P)+Dem/Rep, Wine, SH, River: (1+1+1+4)*1.5=10 arrows
Road (G/P)+Dem/Rep, GOLD, SH, River: (1+1+1+5)*1.5=12 arrows
This fluctuation will cause trade route arrows to be altered based on the change in base trade, which is amplified by SH if there are any river/wine/gold/spice/etc. tiles. The end effect is that hitting flight and losing colossus, will affect route values with the Colossus city..
Similar threads
- Locked
