Tokogawa the Ottoman beast

[CivCorpse]

I know everyone hates the protective trait. And unless you're a builder (like me) that wants to build 3 archers and 10 Wonders, I guess I can see your point. I just can't get over the combination of Tokogawa's traits when it comes to gunpowder units. With just one exp granting civic or one MI, you get CG1,Drill1 and Combat1...plus two other promotions of your choice. That isn't too bad. It is actually pretty kick @$$.
The problem is the Japanese are a brutally hard Civ in the early game to play. The starting techs are pretty bad, especially if you start away from the coast. His UB is just rotten and is a late one at that. And Samaurai don't impress me all that much now that the AI builds lots of crossbows. So some of my games have been quite a struggle. Until I got smart and turned on unrestricted leaders. And thus Tokogawa of the Ottoman's was born.
Jannisaries are mean enough as it is. But add all those free promotions and you roll over anything until Cav's. The built in counter promotions to EVERYTHING before gunpowder units is just tasty. The only units that come close to them are other protective muskets, but you still have the advantage of a free combat1 promotion. I just love toko now. I love him so much, I am going to go play another Tokottoman game as we speak. I like playing Agg/Ai with him. And cultural/diplo/spacerace turned off....all about the bloodshed.

 

[KaytieKat]

Hi

Yeah Toko can make just bout ANY gunpowder UU VERY scary. Imagine Toko boosted Redcoats or Oromo's or Navy Seals. He can even turn musketeers from a UU that make most people go "meh I guess you could pillage with em" into something that actually looks pretty spiffy.

Another nice match is Native Americans. Toko's protective with their UB makes VERY strong archers out of the box and then his agressive makes the Puppy Soldiers a lil tougher.

Kaytie

 

[Silver Marmot]

Unrestricted leaders is rather unfair. The game was deliberately designed to prevent unique units that are already great to be given further bonuses via traits. For instance, since Praetorians are absolutely outstanding, neither Roman leader is aggressive or charismatic. If you had Boudica (Agg/Char) leading the Romans, the game would be a total joke.

 

[CivCorpse]

Unrestricted leaders is rather unfair. The game was deliberately designed to prevent unique units that are already great to be given further bonuses via traits. For instance, since Praetorians are absolutely outstanding, neither Roman leader is aggressive or charismatic. If you had Boudica (Agg/Char) leading the Romans, the game would be a total joke.

Just go up a level. Praetorians are unfair regardless of who has them. If the game was designed with fairness in mind, then no Roman leader would have the organized trait to make super expansion cheaper. Liz wouldn't have a UB that matches her financial trait. Or the Korean UB would boost Wang's finacial trait. If you want fair, then give ALL the civs ancient era UU's. And on the subject of unfair, how about Augustus being Industrious and having a UB that boosts GPP's? Sheesh, why not just make the third Roman leader Ind/Phi.
Why does the game have these imbalances? Because Prats are FUN. Tokottoman is FUN. Playing any organized leader as either HRE or Zulu's is fun if you want to REX forever. I like being the bully. I am the worst warmonger alive so I like having an edge when I feel blood thirsty. And Liz will always be my favorite leader for all around balance. She is the absolute queen of the HE. Phi trait for the GP science city to fund research until her cottages are nice and juicy. When I play her, she makes Mansa and Ghandi look like backwoods hillbillies.
The game was designed to offer a FUN playing field for as many people as possible. Fairness never entered into the picture. Otherwise some civs would not have UB's that become obsolete while others last the entire game. Or the americans wouldn't have to wait 3 thousand years for a UB or UU. And poor looney Liz gets hosed both ways. a UB that is obsolete in record time and a UU that is just plain bad. by the time you have Conquistadors everyone has gunpowder unless they are a backwards civ that is everyone's whipping boy.
I think they made Monty use a crappy UU because he would be even worse with a full strength swordsman.
And as for unrestricted leaders, wait until you get Montezuma Caeser in a game. I have several times and it always ends badly. The two worst were when our capitals were with spitting distance. Neither of us had copper and when I researched iron working he had it in his BFC. The only good thing about the game was it ended quickly. The other bad game I was doing nicely. Had knocked off one of the 2 AI on my continent and was poised to attack the 2nd one. My caravel found the other continent. I play standard size maps with 8 civs. Me and 7 AI. When I got there I found Monty the Roman. Noone else. Just big scary Monty with a continent meant for FIVE. He had a huge tech lead, though he didn't go the naval route so he didn't find me first. He was annoyed with me from the first turn we met. I didn't even bother to stick around until he had astronomy. Because MY spearman never beat tanks.
If you want fair, play tic tac toe...if you want fun. Play any way you like. If you want ME to play by your definition of fun, then give meabout $120 reimbursement for what I payed for the game and exp packs

 

[Roxlimn]

Tokugawa isn't actually hard to play in the early game. Just declare war and take over the lands and resources of everyone you meet. Don't bother researching non-war technology. TAKE IT from the hands of the Civs whose throats you threaten with a pointed sword.

Don't bother making wonders. Take it from those people who make it. By the time it matters, you should have a large land base and the technology to do with it as you please.

Key are Swordsmen and Archers. Cover and Shock Swordsmen can punch through culture defenses without siege if you make them in enough numbers. Protective Archers save you production - less Archers in your stacks and cities mean more attack power.

Don't forget to spam Workers in your stacks. You'll need them to make your 1 movement guys move faster in neutral ground.

 

[Levgre]

actually I think the game was designed to be fair. I think they just didn't do the best job balancing.

Another point in balancing is that you are considering balance in one game type... the standard game that starts at 4000 B.C.... which makes early power, and getting off to a better start most important.

start in the industrial or modern era, you'll see the Americans be a bit more significant.

 

[Quotey]

Which leader is Agg/Org? That leader of the Zulus.... Cheap Ikhandas, Courthouses, AND Civics? WOW. Almost as good as Darius.

 

[r_rolo1]

^^Shaka is Agg/Exp... but it is one of the best leaders to play IMHO ( and is one of the best working AI, if he can bully enough a techie )

P.S Hammurabi is Agg/Org....

 

[oyzar]

Just play with protective skirms... The game will never be the same again.. Hammurabi of summeria is also pretty brutal... Though i don't see why you would turn off the AI victory condition(basically turning on godmode). And no the AI rarly win by domination as long as there is an human on the map...

 

[Diamondeye]

Yeah, there are lots of unrestricted leaders fun, but practically, talking gunpowder, I like Churchill better. And you don't even have to use unrestricted.

 

[CivCorpse]

Yeah, there are lots of unrestricted leaders fun, but practically, talking gunpowder, I like Churchill better. And you don't even have to use unrestricted.

Churchill is good too, but Monty drafts better units since the xp penalty doesn't affect the free promos. Combat1 isn't huge but it can be the little extra that helps you survive.

 

[Roxlimn]

It's not the Combat 1 that's worth the price of entry. It's the Pinch promotion that stacks on top of it! Entire armies of drafted Rifles with Pinch. Sweet.

 

[Diamondeye]

It's not the Combat 1 that's worth the price of entry. It's the Pinch promotion that stacks on top of it! Entire armies of drafted Rifles with Pinch. Sweet.

Drill I -> Pinch aswell...

Only need combat for the Medic promos.

Oh, and take into consideration that I don't draft my units, so xp penalties, well, I don't know what it is, actually...

 

[madscientist]

Actually a few comments;

Unfair leaders, Agustus caesar and not because of the Prats. He is industrious with a UB that gives +25% GP production. Add the Parthanon (easy to build in a non-core city) and he's +75% GP until SM. An absolute monster, and the Prats keep AI's off his back while he builds.

Unrestricted leaders. I never used them but some combos look like fun. Not cheating in my books.

Protective leaders. I for one have no problems with them at all and wonder why everyone does. Two free promotions for archery and gunpowder units, plus cheap walls and castles are pretty darned good (I like to build, war and tech equally but still appreciate the protective trait).

Protective leaders I like(besides Toku, discussed enough above).

Churchhill: Absolutely awesome Redcoats, especially if you have a few settled GGs, three free promption on top of CG I and Drill I. The warrior protective leader.

Wang: Tech maniac. Build a good number of CG III units and turtle to space. The UU is nerfed for city attack but along the borders are real stack of doom killers.

Gilgamesh: Fast expansion while making it difficult to attack him. Very early Zig and a stronge early UU make him good to expand and defend early. One of the best leaders for cutting off the AI.

Both Chinese: Cho-huks with free CG I and more importantly Drill I!!! Promote then all along the drill line and watch out, plus they deal collateral damage.

Charlemange: I have played him yet but Imperilaistic for GGs plus the UU I think make this leader very dangerous mid-game. I think teh protective trait helps him by allowed middle age cities to be defended with one longbow and one UU, allowing the bulk of the force to attack.

Sitting Bull: Between the UB and protective trait, these are the best defensive units possible especially post Fuedalism. And the UU is the only early unit that stand equalt to a PRAT.

Do I wish protective had a little more, yes. CHeap Bunker and bomb sheleters would make alot of sense.

 

[StuntedAzrael]

I consider Darius one of the most powerful leaders out there.

Fin/Org and you can REX like crazy. Put immortals into the picture. Add apothecary later and he is expansive also. He maybe suits my playing style but games with him are just easy.

 

[CivCorpse]

I consider Darius one of the most powerful leaders out there.

Fin/Org and you can REX like crazy. Put immortals into the picture. Add apothecary later and he is expansive also. He maybe suits my playing style but games with him are just easy.

he is, but then again we're discussing protective leaders with gunpowder units for the most part