Top Must-Have Wonders for Each Civ

[avalonnn]

Recently built an absolutely massive Lanun city with Slums + Heron throne.

 

[Selrahc]

I usually take it a step further, and have Order Kurios with Unyielding Order in every city

Or to take it a step further.. Druids with Unyielding Order, Kurios worshipping Veil and in Sacrifice the Weak civic. That would make some pretty big cities.

 

[Tasunke]

Hmm, Lanun with Slums, Heron Throne, Overlord Wonder that gets rid of unhappiness, ... and then after you build the Overlord Wonder, switch to AV for Sacrifice the WEAK

= massive Oceanic city of DOOM!!! (I christen it, Neo-NegaShanghai)

add lots of health resources + lots of trade routes for devastating effect



My recommended build-order would be ... Heron Throne, then Overlord Wonder (this gives you plenty of time to switch to AV), then Slums.

Probably should go for slums before Infernal Pact ... just to get it first, and also to have more space for your peoples.

If you have extra population ... later on run a civic like Guilds or Scholarship for extra specialists, and perhaps build Great Library if you are planning the specialist route. IF you aren't planning on scholarship though ... if you have time to build either G LIbrary or G lighthouse, might go wit hthe light house first.

but yea, Heron -> Overlord Wonder -> Slums -> AV (Infernal Pact) -> Sacrifice the Weak.

since you already have engineering for Slums, try to get Iron, but if you can't -> maybe stop by Runes of Kilmorph for the Mines of Moria (Iron Wonder).

You'll need the Iron ... to upgrade 2 Ritualists and 2 Cultists into Magical Eidolons. Cause might as well snag Malevolent designs after getting Infernal Pact. If you stopped to get Stygian Guards before switching to AV, you're even closer to Malevolent already ... but honestly its faster to Ignore stygians while going for the Slums. (and then get Fanatacism on your way to Malevolent later, when your economy is better).



But Aye, Order Druids w/ Kurios (following AV) seems like another great strategy.

The only problem is that, it'd be better to not found Order in that case ... or at least to be wary of the city that does found it. (like build Mercurians in that city or something) ..... and to quickly Inquisition order from your cities as soon as you go AV. Assuming you feel confident your order Druids won't be assassinated that is ....

 

[doktarr]

Major thread necro here, but I'm really surprised nobody mentioned the Mercurian Gate for the Kuriotates. It allows the Kuriotates to expand by proxy.

Honestly, though, I want the gate almost no matter what. To me, the Mercurian Gate is one of the four best wonders in the game (along with the Guild of Hammers, the Nexus, and Nox Noctis). Just forget for a moment the idea that you have a teammate civ, which can research parallel tech paths, represent you on the overcouncil, and so forth. You can just think of it as an extra palace that supplies extra mana sources (and Iron), and gets tons of free troops. Just that alone makes for an awfully strong wonder.

 

[Tasunke]

the gate is really nice, but loss of autonomy can suck.

I would agree that the Gate is probably best with the Kuriotates (and potentially fastest with the Luichuirp).

The gate is, while an awesome wonder, still very much a measured decision. Will culture overlap prevent certain important tiles from being worked? Will the AI (if you switch) allow you to take enough old cities to become viable? Will the AI be a competent war ally? If you don't switch, will Basium and his stack of angels sit in the city and not help you on campaign?

I think that for it to *always* be worth it you should at least be running More Naval AI mod or Erebus in the Balance. (either that or two humans involved).

Still, definitely a good pick!

 

[doktarr]

the gate is really nice, but loss of autonomy can suck.

I would agree that the Gate is probably best with the Kuriotates (and potentially fastest with the Luichuirp).

The gate is, while an awesome wonder, still very much a measured decision. Will culture overlap prevent certain important tiles from being worked? Will the AI (if you switch) allow you to take enough old cities to become viable? Will the AI be a competent war ally? If you don't switch, will Basium and his stack of angels sit in the city and not help you on campaign?

My usual strategy with the gate is to put it far away from the core of my empire. Since I play on huge continent maps, there's usually another continent full of opposing civs to contend with. I'll either capture or settle a city, and then try to pop the gate there. It's easy if you have a Great Engineer handy, of course. I've never switched to Basium.

I think that for it to *always* be worth it you should at least be running More Naval AI mod or Erebus in the Balance. (either that or two humans involved).

Since I've only ever played More Naval, that may have biased me.

 

[TheLazyHase]

Just forget for a moment the idea that you have a teammate civ, which can research parallel tech paths, represent you on the overcouncil, and so forth.

And someone who will bring you in every possible war, will misuse his unit in lose them stupidly, settle in any troublesome location, and need two of every strategic ressource instead of one.

More importantly, it cripple an AI creating it far more than it would ever help you.

In that, I prefer far more invoking some infernal. In Magister modmod you can even invoke three of them and they can't take over your city if you summon them which make them even better.

 

[doktarr]

And someone who will bring you in every possible war

Interesting... I haven't really had that problem. Basium will get me in a war right away quite often, but once he's established himself he's been reasonably well-behaved for me. This may be a function of where I put him on the map.

will misuse his unit in lose them stupidly

I haven't really had problems with that, aside from Basium wandering off alone in earlier versions of More Naval, which is something Tholal has fixed. In my experience, Basium uses his forces with all the subtlety of a jackhammer, and doesn't always go for the most strategic target, but hey, one massive stack of angels marching on my enemies is considerably better than zero.

settle in any troublesome location

He hasn't been particularly settler-happy for me, but even if he was, it wouldn't be a problem with the way I play him. I basically treat the Mercurian palace like a fourth palace - I have my base palace, the winter palace, the summer palace, and the Mercurian palace. If I get a city near the Mercurians, I will give it to them unless it has a wonder I really want, or if I need it for the Obsidian Gate link.

, and need two of every strategic ressource instead of one.

Now I'm just confused... I've always been able to get Basium to give me whatever I want on the diplomacy screen, no questions asked. In fact, I usually take the earth and life mana away from him in his first turn. (Which is one of the nice things about the Gate - I think of the 1 free life and earth mana as part of the wonder.)

More importantly, it cripple an AI creating it far more than it would ever help you.

I certainly haven't found this to be the case. Granted, I usually get it first, but one notable exception was a game where the Kuriotates built him, and they proceeded to work together to dominate the main continent of the game. It took Chalid, and a LOT of Iron Golems, to defeat them.

In that, I prefer far more invoking some infernal. In Magister modmod you can even invoke three of them and they can't take over your city if you summon them which make them even better.

Now, this is an interesting perspective. I've never really seen the benefit of summoning the Infernals. They're not teamed with you, so if you create the situation where they will be powerful, eventually you will probably have to defeat them yourself, right? Plus, there's the annoying hell terrain to deal with. One each of the hell versions of the resources is nice, but is it worth having to put together a crew to sanctify the rest of your land?

If Hyborem's whisper couldn't affect the summoning civ, that would make them much more attractive, for sure.

 

[TheLazyHase]

I haven't really had problems with that, aside from Basium wandering off alone in earlier versions of More Naval, which is something Tholal has fixed. In my experience, Basium uses his forces with all the subtlety of a jackhammer, and doesn't always go for the most strategic target, but hey, one massive stack of angels marching on my enemies is considerably better than zero.

You describe exactly the problem. He have a pretty weaksauce army compared to your average continent spanning empire and will definitely try to take on any army that happen near him. Like any AI you might say, but losing a city for that doesn't amuse me.

If you're in a position where your opponent are already so crippled that the Basium army by itself is enough, then either you had done the difficult feat of making Basium wait 100+ turn so he can do a reasonable sized empire or you are overkilling hard your opponent.

Also, if you steal from him all resources, he won't do anything worthy. And losing a city to gain 1 earth and 1 life is almost never worth it, especially since it remove even more of Basium potential.

Now, this is an interesting perspective. I've never really seen the benefit of summoning the Infernals. They're not teamed with you, so if you create the situation where they will be powerful, eventually you will probably have to defeat them yourself, right? Plus, there's the annoying hell terrain to deal with. One each of the hell versions of the resources is nice, but is it worth having to put together a crew to sanctify the rest of your land?

Well, I never seen the AC go above 30 if I weren't actively raising it. So no hell terrain problem. And I can actually raze them as soon as they aren't useful as distraction anymore. Their army are usually pretty weak, like the Basium one, and if they are not, it mean they have bought you 100+ turn because they were busy invading everyone. Normally, you have done something on thoses 100 turns

If Hyborem's whisper couldn't affect the summoning civ, that would make them much more attractive, for sure.

In base FFH, just don't get any Ashen veil city

To put it bluntly, Basium is kind of trash because you must ally yourself with him, and it's a weak AI partner. Hyborem is more useful because he cost way less and you can get rid of him easily once he's no longer useful.

 

[doktarr]

Basium uses his forces with all the subtlety of a jackhammer, and doesn't always go for the most strategic target, but hey, one massive stack of angels marching on my enemies is considerably better than zero.

You describe exactly the problem. He have a pretty weaksauce army compared to your average continent spanning empire and will definitely try to take on any army that happen near him.

I usually find that if decent warmongering is going on, he can have a pretty nice stack of angels pretty quickly. The Mercurians have had the highest power graph value of any civ in several games I've played, both when I summoned them and when others did so.

One of the nice things about the Mercurians is that they can completely crash their economy (huge stack of angels) and I don't really care, because their troop development and upgrading isn't dependent on their economy, and I wasn't counting on them to do much research anyway.

Like any AI you might say, but losing a city for that doesn't amuse me.

Well, it really depends on the value of the city you lose, right?

I've never built the gate in a nicely developed city. I've either used a Great Engineer to pop it in a recent capture or recently-settled city, or I've just let the gate take 40 turns to build on some remote outpost.

Also, if you steal from him all resources, he won't do anything worthy. And losing a city to gain 1 earth and 1 life is almost never worth it, especially since it remove even more of Basium potential.

Again, this is highly dependent on the value of the city you are surrendering. But taking the Mercurian Mana away from them doesn't really hurt him that much - it just means that he won't build any mages.

Well, I never seen the AC go above 30 if I weren't actively raising it. So no hell terrain problem.

I generally play with a doubled Armageddon counter, for this exact reason.

And I can actually raze them as soon as they aren't useful as distraction anymore. Their army are usually pretty weak, like the Basium one, and if they are not, it mean they have bought you 100+ turn because they were busy invading everyone. Normally, you have done something on thoses 100 turns

Interesting. I like this idea. Maybe I should try summoning him a bit more.

My next game is probably the Elohim - I think I'll summon the Infernals, take their cities, and build the Infernal Palace. Bye bye, war exhaustion!

(Hey, we're back on topic! Best wonder for the Elohim = Infernal Palace.)

In base FFH, just don't get any Ashen veil city

Or just snuff him out before Malvolent Designs, right?

 

[TheLazyHase]

(Hey, we're back on topic! Best wonder for the Elohim = Infernal Palace.)

The Lanun palace and especially the Sidar palace can also be very good but unlike the infernal one you can't control their appareance.

 

[Tasunke]

True, Lanun and Sidar palaces, while playstyle specific, can also be very good

 

[sunbeam]

The Guild of the Nine is absolutely good for everyone. Even if you are the Clan and can pump out troops, it is nice to deny it to anyone else.

But in my experience, I find that the Kuriotates benefit from it more than any other civilization.

Since I go Centaur intensive when I play them, Ride of the Nine Kings is important as well.

 

[ivanbin]

I have no idea how you never had AC go above 30, but I just recently played a game (Starting as mercurians), where i don't know how, but AC went up all the way up to 100.
No idea who made it rise, because everyone's scores combined accounted maybe for 30-40% max. And the AC counter wasn't on double either.

As for best wonder, I would have to go with Heroic Epic, for your "battle" city

 

[Tasunke]

I can see GotN as important for the Kuriotates, as it allows them more than 3 units per turn.

Still ... any civ that has very high GNP, and fairly low hammer output -> It can change the face of the game for them.

 

[BvBPL]

Here's a brief list of mine. There aren't a lot of "must have" wonders for any one civ.

• Amurites: The Catacomb is key, obviously.
• Clan of Embers: These guys get quite a bit of use out of the Mines of Gal'Dur. Not thematic, of course, but the Mines provide a huge boost to the Clan's axmen and it is pretty much the only wonder that can boost all of Clan's melee units, not just one of two like the Form of the Titan and Apprenticeship. Plus, soldiers of Kilomorph actually return a net gain in hammers for the clan when you sack them for production.
• Hippus: Ride of the Nine and Guild of the Nine.
• Sheaim: Prophecy of Ragnarok, of course. Catacombs also provide a huge boost by letting every city w/a gate spawn Witches. The Compass is pretty sick for them too.
• Sidar: Form of the Titan for those 2 XP. Every little bit helps to get your units to level six.
• Calabim: Pillar of Chains. Pillar of Chains plus a Governor's Mansion actually makes you hope for unhappy population.
• Luchuirp: Both dwarvish factions get more out of the Guild of Hammers than most civs. Particularly useful for the Luchuirp, who should also aim for the Mines as well if they don't have iron around, but that can be hard to judge because you have to choose between getting Arete for the Mines and Smelting to determine where the iron is. If you go for Smelting and find out there is no iron and the Mines have already been built, well then I guess you better go for Construction. Still, if you can get the Guild and have some sort of iron then you're all set to start rolling out iron golems from every city.
• Infernal: Prophecy of Ragnarok, assuming it hasn't already been built.
• Lanun: Heron Throne and City of a Thousand Slums in the same city is just incredible.
• Mercurians: Unless you set out with the strategy in mind, you probably can't guarantee that you'll get the Form of the Titan, but if you do it plays double duty because all your built units get recycled, with those two extra XP, as angels.

.

 

[UnforcedError]

Amurites: The Catacomb is key, obviously.

Why? The Catacomb costs 600 and the Mage Guild costs 60 each, both Amurite leaders being Arcane. You don't want to produce adepts in more than 10 cities, do you? The Catacomb may be worth for Os-Gabella, but otherwise it's just a poor wonder.

Also: I think any civ can profit from the Guild of Hammers. Yes, the Dwarves probably get more from it in average, but so do Elves or vampires or anybody else running enhancer civics, like Arete, Guilds etc.

 

[BvBPL]

Why? The Catacomb costs 600 and the Mage Guild costs 60 each, both Amurite leaders being Arcane. You don't want to produce adepts in more than 10 cities, do you? The Catacomb may be worth for Os-Gabella, but otherwise it's just a poor wonder.

Move those sixty hammers into Caves of the Ancestor and you'll start producing mages, not adepts. It is a way of using one high hammer city as a means to save hammers in other cities.

Also: I think any civ can profit from the Guild of Hammers. Yes, the Dwarves probably get more from it in average, but so do Elves or vampires or anybody else running enhancer civics, like Arete, Guilds etc.

Yeah, but the Luchuirp use forges to make iron golems so it is significantly more valuable for them than other civs.

 

[UnforcedError]

Move those sixty hammers into Caves of the Ancestor and you'll start producing mages, not adepts. It is a way of using one high hammer city as a means to save hammers in other cities.

Well, I'm afraid you didn't understand me. I wasn't saying the Cave of Ancestors was bad, I said sinking 600 into something you don't even need was poor play. And you're much better off building a Cave of Ancestors + Mage Guild in those high cities. What good is a Mage Guild in a low city? It will take ages to set up the Cave of Ancestors and even longer to grind out some adepts.

Yeah, but the Luchuirp use forges to make iron golems so it is significantly more valuable for them than other civs.

Not quite. In fact the Guild of Hammers is exactly what you claimed the Catacomb of Libralus to be: using a high city to increase the in all other cities. Besides, it enables forges without ever touching the melee line, which is a huge bonus. Iron Golems require IW anyway.

 

[Choriston]

Hmm, Lanun with Slums, Heron Throne, Overlord Wonder that gets rid of unhappiness, ... and then after you build the Overlord Wonder, switch to AV for Sacrifice the WEAK

= massive Oceanic city of DOOM!!! (I christen it, Neo-NegaShanghai)

add lots of health resources + lots of trade routes for devastating effect

I was just thinking about this today. Why not go the whole nine yards and have Altar of Luonnatar and run Theocracy as well? You'd have to start AoL before the AV switch, I guess. Dammit I'm giving this a try. And I name you... Dis Ubercity