It can balance out in other ways as well. We get a boost to settlers so the food output matters a bit less and the +1 commerce from sheep helps us more as we are not financial and need more commerce.
Stuff can also be balance out with other resources. Having bananas is great but you can't really use them until calendar.
About pig versus sheep... The issue is that a patured pig gets +3 regardless of tile, whereas a pastured sheep gets +2 regardless of tile. That means that in terms of pure pig is superior to sheep... but I agree that if you have a whole lot of sheep it matters less.
A plains non riverside pig is a 5f1h tile when improved with a pasture. This is perhaps better than a 5f1c grassland sheep tile because a hammer is worth more than a commerce, but is it unbalanced?
The turn that they completed Mining they had a second tier tech selected, but then they changed it to a first tier tech. Since they already have Fishing, Ag, and Mining, they must be going for Wheel, Hunt, or Myst, which is very interesting indeed. They might be going for a religion. The other option, I think is Hunting for camps. Not sure what they are teching yet. If it is the Wheel or Hunting they will gain soldier points (4k and 2k respectively). If it is Myst, then no soldier points.
My best guess is that CDZ is going straight for BW after mining still working that 1f/2f 3c water tile.
At least one of the folks who teched Ag, is going for another first tier tech (could be fishing).
It can balance out in other ways as well. We get a boost to settlers so the food output matters a bit less and the +1 commerce from sheep helps us more as we are not financial and need more commerce.
Stuff can also be balance out with other resources.
A plains non riverside pig is a 5f1h tile when improved with a pasture. This is perhaps better than a 5f1c grassland sheep tile because a hammer is worth more than a commerce, but is it unbalanced?
You are both right, of course, but I was not talking about balance. Balance is overrated IMO... you get what you get, and you just make the best of it.
My only point was that (on the same type of tile) pig makes more than sheep... period. That was all.
If you notice the scores have changed. You can give that a try if you'd like. Otherwise I'll give it a shot in a little bit. Checking CivStats everyday is a good idea. Score changes mid turn can be tech trades or whips. Score changes at the beginning of a turn can be wonders built, land acquired (in culture for 20 turns), techs researched, or pop grown.
If you looked at the screenshot from the turn after the score increase, you will see that the highest opponent value for pop was 1000, so it was not a pop increase.
Pop points are not consistently the same number of points. It depends on the amount of food on the map. I think that for this map pop growth is 5 or 6 points, so this is not enough to tell us it was not pop growth. But the fact that the highest opponent pop value was still 1000 means it wasn't pop growth, but was in fact a tech (it couldn't have been land increase until turn 20 and we would know if anyone built a wonder).
It took 6 turns for that team, so what could it be? I'd say fishing or hunting. Then you can check the soldier points value and see that it was fishing. We'll do a full profile of the last turns later tonight.
Demo work from turns 12 to 18. Red underlining means the value changed since the last turn.
t=12
Spoiler:
No score increases.
Demo screen:
This turn everyone except Team Sirius finished a worker. One team switched from a 1f2h tile (possibly a grassland forest hill) to a 3f tile (unimproved food or flood plains) for added growth. I'm going to guess this was Quatronia, who had previously had 4 MFG.
Merlot gains a tech because Highest Opponent Value for Pop is still 1k. It took only 6 turns. The only thing this could have been is Fishing. They high value for GNP changed to 23, but this is surprising to me because the possible values for House Merlot are 18,19,20,21,22,24 (everything but 23). As far as I can see only Sirius could have 23 GNP and this would be if they were teching second tier tech. Why would they switch techs? Merlot is either working a 3c tile and has a GNP of 18 (teching Wheel, Hunt), a 0c tile and has a GNP of 20 (teching Masonry), or is working a 3c tile and has a GNP of 21 (teching Poly, Med, BW, AH, Sail).
t=16
Spoiler:
No score increases.
Demo screen:
We went from 5th place in LE to 6th. I suspect that a person grew a forest in their BFC and now has 6 forests. This was not Merlot.
t=17
Spoiler:
No score increases.
Demo screen:
Two teams improved a 5f food resource this turn. At least one of them was the previous low value (probably Quat and CDZ).
t=18
Spoiler:
House Merlot gains 6 points (from 45 to 51).
Team CDZ gains 6 points (from 39 to 45).
The Mavericks gain 6 points (from 39 to 45).
Demo screen:
Three teams grew in pop this turn. Two were due to pop growth and one was due to to a tech. House Merlot grew their capitol to size 2. The highest value for soldier points is now 12k an increase of 8k, which is exactly the value of BW. So the 10k increase in soldier points is from BW (8k) and 2 pop increases (1k each). Calculating possible beaker numbers it has to be CDZ that teched BW and therefore The Mavericks who grew in size.
Current opponent situation:
Team Sirius (not sure if I am looking at this wrong, or if they really switched techs)
-Started with Ag and Fishing and teched Mining.
-teching AH, Sail, BW (60 beakers invested already) with 78 beakers already in The Wheel.
The Mavericks
-started with Myst and Mining and teched Ag.
-teching Poly, Med, AH, or BW at 12/13 bpt. They have already invested 108 or 117 beakers. Med would finish on t=19. Poly or AH would finish on t=21 or t=22. BW would finish on t=23 or t=24.
Quatronia
-started with Fish and Mining and teched Ag.
-teching AH, Sailing, or BW at 12 bpt. They have already invested 108 beakers. AH or Sailing would finish on t=22. BW would finish on t=24.
CDZ
-started with Fishing and Ag and teched Mining and BW.
-just finished a tech.
Merlot
-started with Myst and Mining and teched Ag.
-teching Fish, Hunt, or Wheel at 10 bpt (30 invested beakers) or Poly, Med, AH, or BW at 12 bpt (36 beakers invested) or Mason at 14 bpt (42 beakers invested).
No one has built a warrior yet. Quatronia and the Mavericks do not yet have Fishing and are not currently teching it.
Yes. The Mavericks are not teching Fishing and didn't start with it. Quatronia is not teching Fishing, but this is because they already have it. So The Mavericks will be the last to be able to build work boats.
This demo screen was also taken on t=18. This was later than the one in the post above. This shows the opponent low value for GNP at 1. This means that CDZ switched to Slavery the same turn as teching BW and are in anarchy. I am not sure why the low values of hammers and crop yield wouldn't be zero, but this must be what happened.
Here's the demo screen from later in the turn:
Here is the demo screen from t=19:
Sirius and Quatronia increased their score by 6.
The average soldier points increased by 1000, meaning the total soldier points increased by 5000. The Pop values also increased by 5000. This means that we had 1 population increase (from 1000 to 6000 pop value) and a tech researched that brings soldier points. It could be two warriors were built this turn and the tech researched had no soldier points with it, but I don't find that as likely. Let's see what we can do to clarify further.
Since we see that the highest opponent AR is 83%, when it used to be 85%, we know that Quatronia gained one population point this turn. This means that it was Sirius who gained a tech. It may have been they finished the Wheel, but I find this a little hard to believe. I am siriusly confused about what the GNP situation is and what Sirius just teched. It could have been the Wheel which would account for 4000 soldier points, or it could have somehow been AH/Sailing and a warrior was built this turn. Perhaps if I go back and look over everything I can find a solution that makes more sense.
On t=20 every one gets a score increase. This is due to the land values kicking in, because to get points for land you have to have them inside your cultural borders for 20 turns. Since everyone settled on t=0, everyone is getting credit for their first inner circle of land tiles on this turn. In a few turns Sirius will get credit for his second tier tiles, and then the rest of us. It is possible that someone got some other score increase on the same turn. We should be able to distinguish this because we know how many land tiles are in each opponents inner circle.
I will put some effort into this today. I am also trying to come up with an organizing system that better organizes all of this information. Ideally one that is easy to update and view. If anyone has any suggestions or is great with spreadsheets feel free to lend a hand.
This is a call for someone with programing experience or who knows how to manipulate spreadsheet macros. Here's a programming challenge for those with at least a little experience, although any are welcome to attempt it. It will help with keeping demographics work a little more rigorous even when we get farther into the game.
Programming Challenge:
Given the high and low value out of a group of 5 values (could be for a variable number of values if you want it to be useful in future games) and the average of them, and I need to find the possible value combinations for the unknown values.
-I suggest using the average value times the number of opponents to get the total of the values.
This is basically what I need. I have 5 values (v, w, x, y, z) which add up to a number N. Two of the values are inputted (say v and w) leaving us with x + y + z = N - v - w, where N, v, and w are all known. I just want a list of the possibilities for x, y, and z. It would be nice if redundant possibilities, like (4, 5, 2) and (2, 5, 4) were only listed once. Looking at this I know it must not be too hard to make a program that would do this, but I am not skilled enough in that area to implement it. Do we have someone on our team who could do this? I could help with the logistics of the problem if anyone has programming experience.
Extra Challenge:
An advanced version of the program (for those who need a challenge) would understand that for the rounded down categories (GNP, MFG, CY, AR, LE) the total of the values could be anywhere between (average.value*num.opponents) and ((average.value*num.opponents) + (num.opponents - 1)). In other words for 5 opponents there are 5 possible totals for those categories. With a program that used the total to find possible solutions, it could just be used 5 times to get the possibilities so this isn't necessary, but it'd be a nice feature. If you want to be real clever you could make two forms, one for the rounded-down categories that will do all five calculations at once, and the other that will just do it once.
EDIT: To anyone attempting this these are some things to keep in mind if you want to make individual calculators for each category. All values are integers. For Soldier, LA, and Pop opponent values they will always be whole thousands (which means you can ignore the zeros at the end if you want, and pretend that 1000 = 1, 6000 = 6, etc.). The Average.Value may not be an even thousand, but the total will be. The AR value is a percentage, but can be treated as an integer less than 100 if preferred. LE is an integer, but it will also always be less than 100. The Exports - Imports values can be ignored.
Real sophistication could be achieved by creating a program that limits the possible values based on our value and our rank (notice that ties are broken in an unknown way, so if it says we are 3rd with a value of 5 this means that 2 people have a value of 5 or more). This is too much to hope for, but I just throw it out there in case we have a programming expert on our team for whom this is no problem.
Hey Silent, I can probably help you out... I can start with a simple version and then we can improve it over time to make it do all the stuff you need. It all sounds like it's not too much work.
Easiest for me would be to write c++ code that does the calculations. Can you compile c++ code?
Hey Silent, I can probably help you out... I can start with a simple version and then we can improve it over time to make it do all the stuff you need. It all sounds like it's not too much work.
Easiest for me would be to write c++ code that does the calculations. Can you compile c++ code?
Yes... I program on a unix machine, and I have never compiled anything before in windows but I guess it should be straightforward. I'll have a look at it tonight.
Great news. At least it would be if it proves to be true.
I got a tip from a master demographer (is that we're called?). They made a note in one of their games that ties on the demo screen seem to be broken in reverse civ order. The civ order can be seen when going to log into the pitboss game. When we click on our team and then type in the password, our team name is listed second, behind the Mavericks. This is the civ order. The civ order can also be seen on the CivStats page. The URL for each team page (if you click on their team name or hover over it and look in the bottom left of the screen) ends with playernum= and a number. This is their civ order. Ours for instance says http://www.civstats.com/viewplayer.php?gameid=1778&playernum=2. We are 2nd in civ order.
Now supposedly this means that the tie-breaker order is the opposite of that.
Top Teams have priority in tie-breakers:
Quatronia
Merlot
CDZ
Sirius
AMAZON
Mavericks
So if we all have 5 crop yield we will be in 5th place.
I'm going to re-evaluate all of our demoscreens to see if this doesn't help me get a better picture of what happened.
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regardless of tile, whereas a pastured sheep gets +2
. Balance is overrated IMO... you get what you get, and you just make the best of it.
