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Tourism is Broken; How to Fix it?

Discussion in 'Communitas Expansion Pack' started by Gothic_Empire, Jul 29, 2013.

  1. Ahriman

    Ahriman Tyrant

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    I don't understand what you're saying here. What I am saying is that human behavior is not governed by the diplomacy engine. Players make their own decisions. So the fact that another player is the same ideology as you (and thus doesn't get unhappiness from your tourism influence, but has your tourism advance rapidly against them) can't stop them from invading you if they think you're going to win. Humans play to win. AIs don't. So there are a number of factors that make tourism much more effective as a victory tactic against the AI than they do against human players. I don't see how that is disputable.

    Hence, a tourism mechanic that was balanced in multiplayer would almost certainly be too powerful in single player.

    I just don't see why we would want a mechanic like this. Effectively you are making tourism provide gold, in addition to its current benefits. But as far as I can tell tourism is not underpowered in single player; it doesn't need additional buffs.
    Now if the effect is trivial in game terms, just a few gold, then it probably doesn't effect balance much. But in that case, why bother?

    The game should be balanced around the victory conditions that exist, not against some hypothetical game that has different victory conditions.
    Otherwise it's like saying "if we turn off the spaceship victory, then what do I get for my spaceship parts?"
    There's no reason to give spaceship parts extra bonuses, because the spaceship victory condition is in the game.

    We already have an interaction between espionage and tourism; diplomats increase your tourism influence.

    I am one of the many people who think that espionage in BTS was not very fun. I much prefer the Civ5 system, which is much simpler and more elegant.

    But I do not think this should be a design goal. Tourism is designed to be something that makes the late game interesting, it is not designed to be something that allows city flipping in the Renaissance era.
     
  2. mystikx21

    mystikx21 Deity

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    Espionage in BTS mostly consisted of moving workers around constantly and playing whack everyone over the head to keep them from blowing up your mines and pastures (either through war or through sending spies to do counter-espionage constantly). I would prefer not to have that flavor back. It was annoying rather than interesting. Blowing up a key building (happiness or production) or a spaceship part had strategic uses, but was rarely that useful.

    City-flipping in the Renaissance is not ideal. I do think there could be some reward for early dominance, but it would be modest at best rather than acquiring cities. Diplomatic friendliness or intra-trade benefits mostly.
     
  3. Gothic_Empire

    Gothic_Empire AKA, Ramen Empire

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    I can only go by what you wrote. Which was:

    It's a non-sequitur. Nothing about multiplayer prevents balance. Yes, I can declare war. So can AIs. Manipulating a human is different than manipulating an AI, but still do-able; if you get them economically dependent on you, for example, war becomes undesirable. I'd go so far as to say that diplomacy in multiplayer is more effective, not less, because it's real.

    You absolutely can balance multiplayer games. Your assertion that it's impossible because of AI behavior is a complete non-sequitur. Peace treaties are still a hard 10 turns, for instance, and open borders doesn't go away just because you realize he had an escorted prophet hiding behind the hills.

    AI scripts are clearly bent toward certain victory conditions. What are you trying to say?

    Non-sequitur.

    For the same reason you might pick a pantheon in the ancient era, tourism should have a benefit mid-game. It currently has none.

    No one said this. There are pre-game check boxes that allow you to turn off victory conditions.

    No, but the international space station still has value, as does the tech path leading up to what would be a space victory in a game with space victories enabled. Science is intrinsically valuable regardless of enabled victory conditions (as is every other currency). Tourism is worthless with a cultural victory disabled.

    Right, but getting to the point where you could win a space race has benefits aside from that victory condition. Getting to the point where I could win a cultural victory has no benefit aside from the possibility of winning.

    The game is about immersion and fun, and then about winning later. There'd be more fanfare when we won if winning was the entire goal of playing. Winning currently throws up a splash screen and says "Grats bro." :lol: I'd like to think I'm being entertained by something deeper than the climb to that screen.

    With immersion and fun in mind, and a close look at what makes the other currencies fun--the fact that they convert into bigger, better toys--it's really easy to look at tourism and go, "Well, I'd rather skip the wonder with three great work slots and focus on getting my Oxford U. built."

    If the choice is between "Free tech of your choice" and "eight more tourism per turn" -- explain to me why you would ever pick the tourism. The balancing act of whether or not tourism is too easy to win with (and I'd argue that this is situational) is unimportant if tourism is the boring treadmill and science is the treadmill that gives me more things to do.

    Yes. They give you a bonus to generic victory points that can never be cashed in for anything except the victory splash screen. But Civ is clearly not about the victory splash screen.

    Fair enough.

    Point accumulation without reward is less interesting than point accumulation with reward. Science rewards you for tweaking and maximizing science output. Culture does too, and gold, and military experience points, and production.

    Tourism does not. There is never a reward for choosing tourism over anything else, unless the dice roll gives you someone with an unhappy empire of the wrong ideology.

    It was absurd and frustrating. Inciting unhappiness, though, seems like a decent and realistic use of spies in BNW, and would tie into multiple aspects of the game. I was mostly just generating ideas about how to make tourism less dull. Tying it into existing systems seems like the most logical approach.
     
  4. Ahriman

    Ahriman Tyrant

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    Sure it does. AI's are programmed to like you more and attack you less just because you share an ideology. A human player doesn't care about that. Hence, tourism is more powerful against an AI player than it is against a human player. Hence, if it is balanced in multiplayer, then it is too strong in singleplayer. Tourism does not make the other players economically dependent on you.

    Speaking of non-sequiturs, what does this have to do with tourism?

    AI's don't gang up on a player who is ahead to try to stop them from winning. Human players do that. I'm trying to say that the AI follows a diplomatic engine where they won't backstab a human that is a close ally at the drop of a hat because it looks like the human might win the game. Human players *will* do that.

    Diplomatic AIs are a function of positive and negative modifiers that you have with them. Human players are much more complex.

    You keep using that term. I do not think it means what you think it means.

    Religion is, by design, an early and midgame mechanic. Tourism is not. Not every mechanic has to be important in the early and midgame.

    Sure it does, it can flip cities, and it can cause unhappiness in other players, and to avoid those things they have to let you make it easier to beat them (by joining your ideology).

    Because it can help you to win.
     
  5. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    I think this is actually the heart of what Gothic is arguing.

    Tourism right now is a strong way to win, so you are greatly encouraged to pursue it. But...it is also a boring way to win, as the yield itself doesn't provide you any benefits along the way, compared to our various other victory conditions.

    So you are forced to choose between exciting gameplay and winning the game.


    I happen to agree with Gothic on this point. However, i'm going to stick to my guns about gameplay changes. Tourism right now seems to work, it performs a function, the win condition doesn't seem that broken or anything. So i'm not going to recommend a change off hand.
     
  6. Gothic_Empire

    Gothic_Empire AKA, Ramen Empire

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    It's a way that multiplayer is balanced, a subject that you injected into this. I'll try to connect all of my dots if you try to connect yours. :p

    Incidentally, Non-sequitur means "it does not follow." It really only works as a critical way of saying, "I don't understand what you meant" when you make an "A therefore 42" connection, such as in saying, "We can't balance multiplayer because our AI's are turing tests." :lol:


    I'd argue that this is a limitation of the AI, not a design function. The AI does not roll over and stop running the scripts it's trying to win with. It's just kind of bad at the game. This feels off topic, though.

    Players can and do backstab, yes. What is unbalancing about this? How does it pertain to tourism? I feel like we're getting to a deeper problem that's kind of unfixable, at least from a modding standpoint. Well, no--I can make the AI betray the player. A lot. There are a couple of built in aggressiveness knobs that change with a value from 1 to 10.

    I think that it's a bit absurd that the AI does not react to being nearly dominated by a culture, though.

    Diplomatic AIs are a function of positive and negative modifiers that you have with them. Human players are much more complex.

    That was a good movie.

    Except for the fact that tourism is unlockable and obtainable in relatively large quantities in the ancient era...

    It can also *not* do these things, and more often than not, that's what happens. The differences between ideologies are such that they're all usable in a wide array of victory conditions. You can also defeat a tourism-heavy civ by merely building your happiness and cultural structures (a thing that you have to do to grow anyway). You simply can't plan on city flipping, and because it's a thing you can't focus or depend on doing, there are many occasions where conquering a new city with tourism is an unpleasant surprise, rather than part of the master plan. Shaka bot settles some *terrible* cities. :lol:

    And nothing else.
     
  7. Gothic_Empire

    Gothic_Empire AKA, Ramen Empire

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    Yep! :D

    It's all right. BNW is a solid game. I just want to get my say in for the mod. :lol:
     
  8. Seek

    Seek Deity Supporter

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    I think your reference pool is awfully small to be making claims about Tourism being "broken" - from what I can tell you only talk about this one game in which your friend used a very unusual strategy. If one focuses single-mindedly from the get-go on one's victory goal it's natural that there will be other aspects of the game that are lacking (with potentially fatal consequences).

    Like Ahriman and many others, I simply don't see any sort of problem here. Move along people...
     
  9. Gothic_Empire

    Gothic_Empire AKA, Ramen Empire

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    Perhaps "broken" is too strong of a word. It's different from the rest of the currencies, and it feels unrewarding to invest in. I'm referencing that game continuously because I'm addicted to Civ, and that's the one I was playing. :p I've logged, um, easily 100+ hours into BNW since it came out, and tend to play solo emperor.

    :rolleyes:
     
  10. JohnS

    JohnS Chieftain

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    This keeps coming up, but I stand by my statement that this is a perception issue - whenever you generate the tourism yield, you also generate culture points (and sometimes other yields, I believe). It's impossible to generate tourism without also getting other benefits - in my mind this is functionally identical to the tourism yield giving benefits.

    Again, the tourism yield itself may be boring, but generating it certainly isn't!

    I can see someone used to the bucket-filling game of Vanilla Civ 5 (and to a certain extent G&K) being surprised that the giant yield-churn now contains a yield with seemingly no purpose - but the system works really well and is fun and balanced. The preconception that "all yields must in some way be convertable into other yields" is simply not true. Contrary to how you describe tourism, Gothic_Empire, tourism is not a "currency" and doesn't have to behave like one.
     
  11. Dorevai

    Dorevai Chieftain

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    I think civs under the influence of your culture ought to have positive opinion modifiers toward you. That gives tourism value regardless of your goals. Religion has this benefit.
     
  12. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    Hotels generate additional tourism with no other yield provided.

    Opening Borders increasing tourism....i don't believe it provides other bonuses right now.

    Trade routes increase tourism...and while they do provide other benefits, i might choose a less profitable route in order to get a tourism bump.

    Diplomats i believe give tourism, sacrificing the benefits of a spy.

    I believe the faith belief that gives tourism per world wonder does not give other bonuses....please correct me if i'm wrong.


    So i will disagree with your assertion. There are ways to focus on tourism without gaining other benefits, or denying yourself certain benefits to focus on tourism.
     
  13. mystikx21

    mystikx21 Deity

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    The tourism belief also gives faith on wonders (divine inspiration). The tourism part is only from the mod anyway.

    Diplomats also give diplomatic impacts, for example on the WC votes.

    For the most part though, I'd agree with John. Tourism tends to come with other benefits, usually culture, for most of the game. Only in the late game when it gets high multipliers does it have immense tourism-only value.
     
  14. JohnS

    JohnS Chieftain

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    I'll give you hotels and their national wonder, but they only come into play late when the role of tourism is expanded. The other ones have other purposes with the tourism effect being secondary. My point still applies: you can't just focus on the tourism yield itself, you have to look at the entire tourism system.
     
  15. Myrion

    Myrion Chieftain

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    I get the OP's point. When I think about my cultural victories, the have been fun, but only because I'm a mathematician and I loved how the percentage of influence climbed from turn to turn. If you play with a reasonable number of opponents (more than 2 civs, less than 13) winning with tourism is the easiest way of winning but you don't get anything on the way.
    The real proposal here is: make the cultural vitory harder, but snowballier.

    Make it harder by:
    1. decreasing the value of huge tourism boosts (Hotel, Airport, World Religion would still be ok with 25% instead of 50% of their relative bonuses)
    2. changing the effect of open borders, trade routes, ideologies and carnival on tourism (shared ideologies should give you a higher bonus, different ideologies should give you a higher malus; carnival is waaaaaaay too powerful)
    3. decreasing the bonus of concert tours

    Make it snowballier by:
    1. giving a boost to tourism output for every civ you are already influental over (10% for influence, 25% for dominant) - the reasoning behind it would be that if everyone knows that Civ B likes to visit Civ A, Civ C might want to check out Civ A more for themselves; this would also increase the likelihood of a CulVic in bigger games where you can't have a trade route to every civ
    2. increasing the unhappiness from influence. Currently, it's just a joke. In my last game there were civs with over 100 happiness - they don't care how much I influence them. In my 15 games of BNW I got enemy cities in 1 (going for a domination victory, but Shaka doesn't really care about happiness apparently) and forced a change of ideologies in another 1 (when I went for a science victory). Bottom line: I never received any reward for playing on tourism, except winning the game.
    3. implementing diplomatic advantages for every step of influence, offering gifts for example.


    Currently progressions are like this:
    Diplomatic: You get more allied CS, granting you more happiness/food/ressources/culture thus improving your ability to focus more on money to ally more CS to at some point win. Also you get more votes in the world congress allowing you to shape the world more towards your will (World Religion, World Ideology, Embargos, Ban Luxury,...) making you more powerful diplomaticly. (the best example really is the vote for WRel or WIde as that directly increases the number of votes you get)
    Scientific: More science grants you access to more science building which increase science faster. More science allows you to build more food/growth buildings, increasing your population and thus your science output until you win.
    Domination: Taking over more cities allows you to build more troops as you have more production and more money.
    Cultural: You get more and more tourism which doesn't provide you with anything until you win, except pissing off civs with different ideologies who hate you for your influence. In vanilla BNW you could at least argue that more tourism means more cultur means more policies means more of something but with CEP I usually get so many policies I don't even know which to take anymore, even without a focus on cultur.
    So that is the real problem with the CulVic:
    a) it's too easy (Brazil, difficulty 6, 6 Civs, won the game in 1750)
    b) there are no real rewards on the road to victory except victory itself
     

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