Trade value of items in Civ V

[PhloxCapacitor]

I have a few questions regarding diplomacy, specifically with trading items. I did some searching for answers, but I came up empty (though it seems to me I saw some of this information somewhere a while back).

Has anyone compiled a list of the value of luxury and strategic resources?

It seems like friendly civs will trade an extra luxury for 240 gold or 7 gold per turn for 30 turns. (This doesn't quite make sense to me, since in the "real world" making payments usually results in a greater overall sum paid.) Can you make combinations of lump sum and gold per turn to pay for a luxury? What amounts are usually accepted?

What about strategic resources? How much can I expect to receive for these?

I notice I can usually get an embassy for 1 gold per turn and open borders for 2. Is this pretty standard?

I notice that when I click the button for "What will make this deal work" I can occasionally remove things from my side, such as open borders or 2 horses, and then propose the trade and have it accepted. So are these items valued at zero?

I play on standard speed, by the way. I assume the values would be different at different speeds.

Finally, when I can't make a trade for these amounts, does this mean that the other civ is not truly friendly?

 

[ThorHammerz]

Has anyone compiled a list of the value of luxury and strategic resources?

What about strategic resources? How much can I expect to receive for these?

I play on standard speed, by the way. I assume the values would be different at different speeds.

Finally, when I can't make a trade for these amounts, does this mean that the other civ is not truly friendly?

Luxury resources are given a value of:

(Amount of Happiness) * Number of turns * 2

which essentially means you get 8 gold per turn for 30 turns, or 240 gold. This would only be affected by game speed if the length of the deal were to be modified, and then only for the lump sum trade (as trading for GPT will remain the same).

Strategic resources are a little bit tricky, but essentially the AI will first determine how many copies of a resource it still wants, if applicable:

- Run a check on whether we have ''enough'' of this resource, defined as having more copies of the resource than the number of cities we have.
- If we are still in need, then the amount we will still trade for is defined by: 
min(max(5,GetPlayer()->getNumCities()), iResourceQuantity);

Then, the value of the strategic resources is determined by:

(Number of copies being traded) * Number of turns * 1.5

So 6 Iron = 9GPT or 270 Gold.

If you cannot make a trade for the ''standard'' amount, then it is possible that the AI does not like you as well as you think it does (as the trade value of your items decrease the more negative opinion weights you have stacked against you), but it could also mean the AI simply has enough of the strategic resource, or it perceives that the open borders agreement is not in its favour in the first place (yes, it'll check for that - one of the few things Firaxis implemented in the diplomacy/trade AI that is actually somewhat smart for once).

Items may be valued at zero depending on various conditions (see above for strategic resources), which may include it hating you to the point where everything you offer is meaningless.

The logic for the AI when dealing with trades are all located in CvDealAI.cpp, if you're interested in the details (quite a few hard-coded values in there as well).

 

[LordBalkoth]

There's a feature where the AI values up front gold as 85% of the value of GPT. So if you offer the AI 10 gold per turn (300 gold total) and ask what they'll give you right then, you'll get 85% of that (255). This is because gold RIGHT NOW is better than gold over time.

However...the feature applies in reverse for the AI which leads to screwy results.

The AI will CHARGE you 9 gold per turn for a luxury OR it'll take 240 gold.

The AI will PAY you 7 gold per turn OR it'll pay 240 gold.

Yes, that means it'll pay more up from for a luxury than it will over time.

Note that these values can change if you do things they dislike (they may only offer 6, 5, or even 3 gpt for a luxury if they don't like you).

But those are your ideal values for luxes: 240 gold straight up in either direction, 7 gpt from them, or 9 gpt to them.

Strategics have an interesting feature as well. As Thor said, they're valued at 45 gold (either direction). But...since 1 gpt doesn't reach the 45 gold mark, they'll both pay and demand 2 gpt for it. Which means you can get it for 45 gold FROM the AI or sell it to the AI for 2 gpt (60 gold total).

In theory if you both have iron you could buy all of theirs for 45g each and then sell it back individually for 2 gpt each and make money. Note that the feature doesn't work for larger amounts -- they'll only pay 3gpt for 2 iron, not 4 gpt.

And, as mentioned, they only desire so much because they won't offer you anything at all.

 

[LoneRebel]

The AI will give you 7 gold per turn for 30 turns (210 gold) for a luxury, but if you want a luxury from them you have to pay 9 gold per turn for 30 turns. (270 gold)

For lump sums it's the same price whether you're selling a luxury to the AI or buying from them - 240 gold. For this reason, lump sums (or trading another luxury resource) are the best deal for the human player, whether you're selling luxuries or buying them.

 

[Dr. D]

If trading luxuries for GPT, try to trade them in pairs: the AI will give you 15 GPT in exchange for a pair of luxuries.

 

[LoneRebel]

If trading luxuries for GPT, try to trade them in pairs: the AI will give you 15 GPT in exchange for a pair of luxuries.

I never knew this, thanks.

 

[ThorHammerz]

In theory if you both have iron you could buy all of theirs for 45g each and then sell it back individually for 2 gpt each and make money.

No you cannot, because before it checks for anything else, this:

//tricksy humans trying to sploit us
if(!bFromMe)
		{

check is applied, intentionally to prevent this type of abuse (i.e. it will only buy as many copies of the strategic resource as you possessed originally, i.e. none that were originally from itself).

 

[joncnunn]

The other feature with that 85% modifier to GPT is rounding back to a whole number.

Say you have 4 extra horses.
Sold in the same trade for GPT -> 5 GPT

Micro it down to 4 separate trades of 1 horse each -> 2 GPT * 4 -> 8 GPT.

 

[LordBalkoth]

No you cannot

Yes, you can, I just went and confirmed it.

I had three horses, Hiwatha had three horses. I paid him 135g for his three horses. Then I sold him two of my horses for 2 gpt each (he didn't want the third). I then sold my third horse to another Civ for 2 gpt.

Net result? Lose 135g right now, gain 6 gpt for 30 turns, net gain of 45g overall.

(i.e. it will only buy as many copies of the strategic resource as you possessed originally, i.e. none that were originally from itself).

Except you CAN'T sell a Civ strategics you bought from it or another Civ. We're not talking about that at all. We're talking about a situation where I have two iron, you have two iron, I buy your two iron for 3 gpt (so you have 0 iron and I have 4), and then I sell my two iron for 2 gpt each (so you have 2 iron and I have 2).

We've *swapped* our strategic resources.

 

[ThorHammerz]

Yes, you can, I just went and confirmed it.

Hm, I thought it strange; probably due to a hard-coding of "false" for the bFromMe variable when the item should have had it's original owner ID checked. Guess that invalidates/bypasses that entire check for those cases.

 

[Sessy]

Dat arbitrage. It should be fixed, but I guess you're not getting huge sums out of it.

 

[LordBalkoth]

when the item should have had it's original owner ID

Why do you keep bringing up the original owner?

The god of Civ 5, Casimir, has two iron. IDs CasIron1 and CasIron2.

I have two irons, IDs BadCivIron1 and BadCivIron2.

Casimir sells CasIron1 and CasIron2 to me. Then I sell him BadCivIron1 and BadCivIron2 to him. He's never buying his own iron.

This can also happen for completely legitimate reasons -- maybe I conquer a city which has extra iron. Before I needed iron from Casimir, now I have extra so I sell him some back (since he's still giving some to me for X turns).

 

[ThorHammerz]

Why do you keep bringing up the original owner?

I am bringing up original owner because as I mentioned, there is a check that supposedly (but is only semi/half-functional, as the boolean passed into the function is hard-coded to true or false depending on the trade item/scenario) checks for whether or not the copy strategic resource in question originally came from the AI itself.

As the system evidently does not exactly work like that (i.e. inability to trade back the bought copy of strategic resource, probably changed somewhere along the development line), this is simply food for thought.

 

[RaidandTrade]

I think I f you have a DOF you can get 8 gold up front plus 7 GPT. Massive I know but...


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[phillipwyllie]

Assuming a friendly civ with a DOF
You selling
Stategic resource(that they want): 2gpt/45gold/1 strategic resource
Luxury Resource: 7gpt/240gold/5 strategic resources
Gold: 33gold for 1gpt
gpt: 1gpt for 25gold
open borders: 2gpt/50gold, in saying that I was offered 38gpt from Rome which obviously was a prelude to war.

You buying
Stategic resource: 1-2gpt/45gold/1 strategic resource they want
Luxury Resource: 9gpt/240gold/5 strategic resources they want
Unique Luxury Resource: 28gpt/720gold/15 strategic resources they want/ 3 luxuries of yours
Gold: 25gold for 1gpt
gpt: 1gpt for 33gold
open borders: 2gpt/50gold

In regards to luxuries they seem to be valued at 240gold which = 4 strategic resources they want + 60gold.
In regards to strategic resources this can a combination, also although I've seen coal and oil rejected I have never seen aluminum rejected.

 

[Socratatus]

Seriously, I just play the game.

 

[LordBalkoth]

Knowing whether the AI is trying to rip you off (aka, dislikes you) can be important if you think they're being deceptive or are trying to access just how MUCH they dislike you.