Trade

[surfersjk]

Hi people. I have a query for you all.
In my current game I am playing against the Germans, and decided to try to trade with them. I offered one of my excess luxuries for one of theirs (I think mine was furs and theirs was wine). They turned me down flat, saying it was an insult. I then asked what they wanted for wine, and the reply was ludicrous. It was furs, incense, world map and iron! Talk about a one sided deal! I tried to offer two, and then three of my luxuries for their one, and still to no avail.
What I cannot understand is, why does the aI think it unfair to want to swap luxuries, even when I offer three for one? Surely it can see the benefits and advantages of such a deal?

I am not having a dig at the game, by the way, just curious as to the AI's logic. I wish it would be more flexible regarding trade.

Thanks for reading my message,
Kev.

 

[bobgote]

Sometimes it just happens. Firstly, how powerful are you in relation to them? This has an effect. Also how much you need a luxury/resource may have an effect. What I don in this situation is to offer them my luxury and see what they'll give me. After 20 turns, when they come back to renegotiate, see if you can get a better deal. Otherwise wait til u have the cash to offer them.

 

[Zachriel]

Originally posted by surfersjk
I am not having a dig at the game, by the way, just curious as to the AI's logic. I wish it would be more flexible regarding trade.

The price required depends on several factors. The level of the game, for instance. In addition, it depends on the size of your empire. The larger your relative size to your trading partner, the more it will help you, so the more it will cost. One luxury goes a long way when you have lots of cities. Also, the more luxuries you already have, the more each additional luxury will cost.

 

[amadeus]

I make them a poor deal, and if they refuse...

Their spearmen will be sharply met with my modern tanks and "aero-planes"

 

[TheNiceOne]

What the AI thinks a luxury is worth is directly related to how many faces that are made happy by it. If you have 10 cities and no marketplaces it is worth half as much as if having 20 cities. If you have marketplaces in all your cities, then the third luxury is worth 50% more than the second.

So if you have 50 cities with marketplaces and already have 6 luxuries, a 7th luxury will mean 50 * 4 = 200 happy faces. If the AI have 20 cities and no marketplaces, one luxury means 20 happy faces. It will therefore value the luxury you will get as 10 times as valuable as the one you're offering the AI.

Even if the AI also had marketplaces in all cities, and 4 luxuries before, a luxury from you will generate 20*3 = 60 happy faces, which still means that it values the luxury it offers you 3.3 times higher then the one you offer it.

I may be slighly off with my numbers, but the general principle should be correct. One can easily verify that an AI values luxuries higher if it already has many luxuries (due to marketplace). If you have more than one luxury to trade, you will see that an AI will pay more for the second or third than the first.

 

[Masquerouge]

Gee thanks Niceone ! I finally understand why I had the feeling of having my guts open during luxury trade...

I thought it had to do with relative strength of armies... the lower you are, the higher you'll pay...
Bu now if a luxury will get me 200 happy faces, I guess the trade is, in a way, a fair one !

 

[IDSmoker]

I think "TheNiceOne" is right (or at least close).

I've noticed during the later stages of the game (modern era), it is impossible for me to trade luxuries with the AI. The only way to get a luxury from the AI is to add a tech to the trade. The only thing to trade a luxury to the AI for is money per turn.

Of course, I normally have at least twice the number of the cities as the AI by the Modern Era. Perhaps someone who has had more of a parity with the AI can shed some more light on this issue?

 

[TheNiceOne]

Originally posted by Masquerouge
Gee thanks Niceone ! I finally understand why I had the feeling of having my guts open during luxury trade...

I thought it had to do with relative strength of armies... the lower you are, the higher you'll pay...
Bu now if a luxury will get me 200 happy faces, I guess the trade is, in a way, a fair one !

I believe things like relative strength of armies (and culture) as well as reputation counts, but it's not so easy to verify as the number of happy faces you'll get.

I'm not sure if the AI values the luxury directly propotional to the number of happy faces, but it is certainly a strong factor. I can say this for two reasons.

The first is that in the beginning of the game, when the civs are more equal in size and none have marketplaces, I usually can get trades close to 1-1. Later when my empire is bigger and I have more marketplaces the AI needs a lot more to accept the trade.

The second is what I wrote in my previous post: Late in the game (when AI civs have marketplaces), if you have several luxuries to trade to the same civ, you will get more money for every second luxury you trade (since every second luxury gives one more happiness than the previous due to marketplaces).

I just thought of an experiment which can verify this even better. In a game where the AI demands a lot for its luxury, try to sell away all your marketplaces and see what it demands afterwards. It should be cheaper now. I wouldn't recommend this way of getting cheap luxuries in a GOTM though

 

[Masquerouge]

I learned something today

Does this mean you can also get an insane lot from the AI when trading a luxury to him ? Like 3 advances, a strategic ressource and a luxury ?

 

[TheNiceOne]

If you're small enough and the other civ is big enough with lots of marketplaces and luxury, I guess you could get quite much from selling it one luxury.

I haven't really tried though, but I have got more than 500gp from trading one luxury.

My preferred strategy is to trade my luxuries to the AI for money, and take their luxuries by war

 

[TheNiceOne]

Originally posted by IDSmoker
I've noticed during the later stages of the game (modern era), it is impossible for me to trade luxuries with the AI. The only way to get a luxury from the AI is to add a tech to the trade. The only thing to trade a luxury to the AI for is money per turn.

Of course, I normally have at least twice the number of the cities as the AI by the Modern Era. Perhaps someone who has had more of a parity with the AI can shed some more light on this issue?

I'm normally ahead in techs as well in the modern era, but I know I have got some of the voluntary techs for luxuries - I don't remember the price though.

Also note that even if you have parity in number of cities, you probably have a lot more marketplaces than the AI.

 

[surfersjk]

Thanks everyone. Plenty of information to absorb there. In the end I took the city with the wines in it. I didn't like Bismarck's attitude anyway.
Thanks again for the advice, it was very educational.
Kev.

 

[bobgote]

I've never found a problem trading in later stages. My empire is pretty big too. Try to trade luxury for luxury and put them in with your diplomatic agreements and you end up not paying as much (as long as your pretty strong)

 

[Alphidius]

In most of my games, I don't trade for any stuff not even luxury goods. I'd try to snap up 3 to 4 commodities within my borders.

After that, I'd just wait for cultural-annexation of AI cities and most of them have vital resources nearby. I don't even need to go to war any more or care about their mood swings

 

[Moonsinger]

Wow, for the first time, the AIs are offering me a good deal in my current game. I'm trading "electricity" with India for 201 golds per turn, with Zulu for 71 golds per turn, with Roman for 70 golds per turn. And I also give medicine to the Babylonian for 69 golds per turn. Of course, all of them also throw in their world map for me. This is the best deal I ever get in my entire history of playing civ3.
[dance]

Of course, this may be a bad move for me. Since giving them "electricity" would put them in the equal tech as my civ. That means we will be all getting infantry and artilery units within the next 7 turns - that's would put 125 of my cavalries out of business. However, I do need the money, it costs me over 5000 golds to research electricity and I just want to make some money back on that.

 

[bobgote]

Originally posted by Alphidius
In most of my games, I don't trade for any stuff not even luxury goods. I'd try to snap up 3 to 4 commodities within my borders.

After that, I'd just wait for cultural-annexation of AI cities and most of them have vital resources nearby. I don't even need to go to war any more or care about their mood swings

so what exactly do you do? It's best to trade so you get cash and better relationships with other civs, i don't know why you wouldn't if you could

 

[Alphidius]

Originally posted by bobgote
so what exactly do you do? It's best to trade so you get cash and better relationships with other civs, i don't know why you wouldn't if you could

bobgote: What's the point of having so much cash? Trust me when you are ahead of them in techs or other stuff, they'll go into mood swings, from polite to annoyed.

The trick here is to be self-sufficient and reliant. MPP's, ROP's and Alliances are crap. The world may turn on your civ on day better get prepared for it. Just keep one or two smiling and butter up to them real nice but keep an edge over them, always. Well that's the way I play my games anyway.

 

[bobgote]

I won't trade my techs at all, unless i'm getting techs from them. But if I have a luxury and they want it, I'll trade. It benefits both of us. And if they declare war on me, they lose the luxury and people become unhappy. And while they might turn on your civ, and you have to always be ready for that, it's no fun playing when everyone has an alliance against you.

At least this way they take a rep hit when they do it. It's no disadvantage to you.

 

[Alphidius]

Yeah but my treasury is swollen with dough if ya know what I mean

No point getting more if I ain't gonna spend it. So for every spare luxury commodity I hold, I'm denying the AI additional happy civilians which may work against me (eg. they have a WLTKD and compete with me building a Wonder). That's how I think anyway. Just my 2 cents mate

 

[bobgote]

Yeh fair enough, but I prefer the keep people happy way. And you can never have too much cash. You can always scale up your science or luxuries.