Tradition China Science Victory Guide - Win Before Turn 300!

[tu_79]

The main problem I see with that steady focus on growing is that it leaves you quite defenseless for a time. You'll have more pops, but won't have many buildings, thus hurting happiness and production. Without those buildings you'll suffer unemployment in your latter cities. You can make it up if the terrain follows (flat lands, some forest to chop) and avoid wars at any cost (not forward settling, keeping a sizeable army).

I think it works better not settling on rivers. Buiding a well early gives more power to your pop size in early game, when this strategy is more vulnerable.

 

[Txurce]

Gave it one more shot, this time starting with shrines in all cities. Got them all up fast, with good wood to chop in 3 out of 4... and still missed getting a religion. To be clear, I almost never miss getting a religion. I have to blame it on Ancestor Worship.

This game, I hadn't even started researching Trapping when the build order called for an archer.

I got Pyramids, missed the Oracle by one turn, and took Hanging Gardens instead.

By t185, I ranked #8 in every single category. My capital (size 21) is on a par with everyone else -- not way ahead. My other cities are either 10 or 11. This is despite having Cathedrals everywhere, thanks to Ethiopia. I blame the low pop on essentially no GA's or WLTK's so far.

Finally, I am about to be overrun by Aztec tercios, caravels and even one cannon... while I have four each of chu-ko-nus and pikemen.

I really, really think everything has to go right up front for this strategy to work. Otherwise, it's definitively sub-optimal.

 

[CrazyG]

I just had a game where pyramid chopping almost worked, eventually the Aztecs defeated me in war (they were leading me by 5 techs, I was beating everyone else by 1-2). I also put shrine first everywhere but barely founded (I founded 8 turns after religion #3), can you post a save where you start against those faith heavy civs and found first or second? This was a tough loss, I made a culture city friend on turn 2 and found 9 ruins.

You need to see what your next pop is going to do, if all he does is work a 2 yield tile an emphasis on growing is currently pointless (all he does is feed himself, doesn't help our empire, but he will generate unhappiness). By contrast, how many yields does a building get you? A well is easily earning 4 net yields, and especially in your secondary cities the production gain is massive. A granary earns 3 food if it hits at least 1 bonus resource, plus that saved 15% (the faster you grow the more that is worth). You reach a point where the granary does more per turn than the next citizen, and costs fewer hammers than the next citizen does food. The best part is that granary is still cheap even if you build a well! Even if you take a super long term approach, the answer isn't always growth now. Culture and production generate yields as well. And even if in the very long term the growth does more, you can on

the granary doesn't raise future production costs, each citizen raises future growth costs. Now obviously if you build every building, then its not worht anything, so you focus on growth. You agree not to use the first artist for a golden age, even though it generates a massive amount of food doing so, it will take that painting a very long time to match yields, but the growth doesn't do anything. If shanghai hits 8 population via golden age or love of their dear empress, it ends up working empty grassland. A citizen working empty grassland does nothing other than give me unhappiness. There isn't any point to growing with poor infrastructure.

But unless you're near the end game, the long view says that growth will pay out better in the end, and winning a science victory is a marathon, not a sprint.

What if I sprint marathons?
Jokes aside, you can only make so many decisions for the long term. Given that your pantheon is a very slow long term payoff, I think you need to sprint a little bit to not fall behind. It never surpasses God of All Creation in culture, the happiness is noticeable, and you won't pass it in faith for a while either

 

[Txurce]

Jokes aside, you can only make so many decisions for the long term. Given that your pantheon is a very slow long term payoff, I think you need to sprint a little bit to not fall behind. It never surpasses God of All Creation in culture, the happiness is noticeable, and you won't pass it in faith for a while either

Just started a China game with my usual approach -- in this case, God of All Creation. Result? The second religion.

 

[8bitBob]

I just had a game where pyramid chopping almost worked, eventually the Aztecs defeated me in war (they were leading me by 5 techs, I was beating everyone else by 1-2). I also put shrine first everywhere but barely founded (I founded 8 turns after religion #3), can you post a save where you start against those faith heavy civs and found first or second? This was a tough loss, I made a culture city friend on turn 2 and found 9 ruins.

You need to see what your next pop is going to do, if all he does is work a 2 yield tile an emphasis on growing is currently pointless (all he does is feed himself, doesn't help our empire, but he will generate unhappiness). By contrast, how many yields does a building get you? A well is easily earning 4 net yields, and especially in your secondary cities the production gain is massive. A granary earns 3 food if it hits at least 1 bonus resource, plus that saved 15% (the faster you grow the more that is worth). You reach a point where the granary does more per turn than the next citizen, and costs fewer hammers than the next citizen does food. The best part is that granary is still cheap even if you build a well! Even if you take a super long term approach, the answer isn't always growth now. Culture and production generate yields as well. And even if in the very long term the growth does more, you can on

the granary doesn't raise future production costs, each citizen raises future growth costs. Now obviously if you build every building, then its not worht anything, so you focus on growth. You agree not to use the first artist for a golden age, even though it generates a massive amount of food doing so, it will take that painting a very long time to match yields, but the growth doesn't do anything. If shanghai hits 8 population via golden age or love of their dear empress, it ends up working empty grassland. A citizen working empty grassland does nothing other than give me unhappiness. There isn't any point to growing with poor infrastructure.


What if I sprint marathons?
Jokes aside, you can only make so many decisions for the long term. Given that your pantheon is a very slow long term payoff, I think you need to sprint a little bit to not fall behind. It never surpasses God of All Creation in culture, the happiness is noticeable, and you won't pass it in faith for a while either

I don't have any saves on hand unfortunately. I generally play all in one sitting, so I only have my latest two auto saves, both of which are test games.

So I think the issue of founding is definitely a low production thing. I restarted until I had a flood plains start/all plains expansions where I didn't chop, and it was basically impossible to get a religion with Ancestor Worship. I restarted and switched my religion to Wisdom and founded fine, but there was basically no chance of getting the Oracle. Amusingly, I was slowly ground down by the Aztecs too, as he was isolated by my borders on a Continents map and just never stopped declaring war, but he had way more production.

I think when I get to updating it, I'm going to have to cut the Oracle for any kind of guarantee of consistency and ease of following the guide. There's a surprising amount of subtle in game decisions I've been making to optimize Ancestor Worship starts without realizing it that vary on a game to game basis, whereas Wisdom can provide a streamlined, any start approach. Oracle is great and should be grabbed when possible, but it's simply no longer required for the strat. I may have to take a break from China before I do though. I'm kind of burning myself out on it, and I kind of wanted to write a Mongolia Border Blob guide. We'll see.

edit:

You know, there's actually a strong chance that India is a more beginner friendly Civ for this strat now. Even before their UB was buffed into absurdity, India actually already was able to win a SV by turn 325. Combined with their simpler to use growth ability and nearly guaranteed religion, I may end up switching Civs for the guide.


I see what you're saying about sprinting at the start, and I'm not saying it's always a bad decision to make short term decisions, just that you need a reason to be doing it. But I don't think it really applies to what I was saying about farms vs other tile improvements. Are you gonna swap every farm to a mine temporarily to finish a production que faster? I mean, I can conceive of reasons to do that, but other than that, I don't see how making a comparison between buildings and farms makes sense.

Just started a China game with my usual approach -- in this case, God of All Creation. Result? The second religion.

With the population granting event, you hit 6 pop in your capitol incredibly early. It is very unlikely that getting 1 faith per turn extra for a few turns would somehow take you from not founding to founding early. More likely is that there was some other factor at work in these games that had little to do with your pantheon choice. While there is indeed reasons to go God of All Creation, it is not an especially great founding pantheon.

 

[Txurce]

With the population granting event, you hit 6 pop in your capitol incredibly early. It is very unlikely that getting 1 faith per turn extra for a few turns would somehow take you from not founding to founding early. More likely is that there was some other factor at work in these games that had little to do with your pantheon choice. While there is indeed reasons to go God of All Creation, it is not an especially great founding pantheon.

What can I say? I'm 1 for 4 using Ancestor, and I think I've missed foundign once ever, with God of All Creation and shrines first. Could it have to do with faster production and growth due to the extra happiness?

I may try India as well. I never use them -- this is a good reason to start.

 

[8bitBob]

What can I say? I'm 1 for 4 using Ancestor, and I think I've missed foundign once ever, with God of All Creation and shrines first. Could it have to do with faster production and growth due to the extra happiness?

I'd be surprised, but you never know.

I may try India as well. I never use them -- this is a good reason to start.

Yep, I am definitely changing the guide to India. It's possible that China still has a faster win with a perfect game, but India is going to be so much more consistent now. Taking Goddess of Wisdom from turn 1, I founded on turn 75. Easily first religion. It also allows you take Holy Law, which means you can still get the Oracle. Hurts a bit late game, but the benefits are huge. This was just a test game with no barbs and other goofy settings to very quickly try it out, but I'm looking at an easily sub turn 300 win still, so the potential is there.

It also neatly solves a lot of potential questions. Due to India's UB, you build farms, get Cathedrals and focus on growth. End of. I think that clarity of goals will help players a lot.

edit:

Quick and dirty India guide:

Goddess of Wisdom
Holy Law
Cathedrals
Cooperation
Sainthood
To the Glory of God

Make sure to get Engineering relatively soon for the incredibly strong UB. Always be building farms after resources and just set cities to growth if you don't want to micromanage. They'll sort themselves out eventually.

 

[CrazyG]

I just finished and won a game, skipped pyramids, got cathedrals, then picked mastery because cooperation and synagues weren't available. Everything else followed your guide closely. Won science on turn 320. I do think that at a core level, your strategy is excellent, disagreement seems to be about the details of settling and pantheons

At the start of each era, I did the numbers, there was no point where ancestor worship earned more yields than wisdom would have. In the early game, wisdom also gives +1 science per city, which is almost a council anyways. And getting the faith on founding is so important, why spend 90 gold and chop a tree when you could just have what is basically a free shrine (or you can do both!) Now eventually you reach a point where ancestor provides 2 culture per city, and that culture is worth something, but the thing is you have to prioritize councils to get that, and even with their +2 culture they still aren't a great building, plus you have to research the wheel somewhat early. It costs a lot to use that pantheon, and even then its total yields are barely matching other choices.

Side note, part of the reason god of all is so strong is because culture earns culture. The 5th tradition policy is often worth 6-8 culture when you get it, often that is a 25% gain without working the new specialist, getting that faster makes a big difference. It also frees up luxuries to sell because your people are so happy, that gold can translate to production in new cities (plus I'm pretty sure it weakens your neighbors).

In theory ancestor should be better for a mix of faith/culture, but I'm confident that either wisdom into monuments first or god of all into shrines first outperforms ancestor. If ancestor does have a niche, its not for this type of build. Maybe you can stonehenge it, but I'm convinced its just a bad pantheon

I'll try India tonight. Guaranteed religion, no pressure to get up councils, that sounds lovely. I been craving a decent china strategy (I used to live there) but I can see how it burns you out

 

[8bitBob]

Having played with Wisdom a bit more now, I can definitely see the appeal. If I hadn't been set on trying to get early Wonders, I wouldn't have valued Ancestor Worship as much. Its issue is that it's trying to do a lot of things at once. Maybe it needs a buff, but like I said before, it's kind of hard to justify. Culture and faith are both so valuable in the early game that having it be terrain agnostic and scale just seems like too many things at once to allow it to be strong. Rather than buffs, I think it may need a slight rework to focus in on a goal.

I actually like God of All Creation a lot. I think it's strong in a lot of ways, just not for founding.

I do think that Councils are being a bit undervalued in general for Tradition. Remember that your fourth policy grants +1 science to every Council on top of the base +1 science and science from citizen birth. Now that it no longer has a maintenance cost, I'd say it's pretty strong compared to early Monuments, which only grants +1 culture pre Dedication to Ancestors at a cost of -1 GPT. Just my two cents.

 

[Galbias]

Goddess of Wisdom is pretty much my go-to pantheon, instant 2 Faith per city with no requirements is really strong for founding and it has pretty solid scaling as well (the weakness, of course, being that you get basically no yields beyond Faith). Honestly I think you'd be fine dropping Sainthood for something else like Ritual or whatever but I guess it's a matter of taste. In the one India game I played, my only neighbor was Ethiopia so I'm not sure how effective it would be, though I would guess that India's UA + Ritual could result in some pretty crazy passive pressure if you have a nice central location.

Out of curiosity, I took a look at a couple of past games I had where I went Tall with heavy science focus and Goddess of Wisdom would generally be generating around double what Ancestor Worship would mid-late game. Of course, these weren't with China or India, so you'll have more population and double is more like 1.5, but that's still a lot more Faith to play with.

 

[8bitBob]

Think you may be underestimating Sainthood a bit. It generates tens of thousands of faith in my games just from the GP.

Wisdom is definitely a far superior scaling pantheon, providing 2-3 times more faith end game than Ancestor would in my games. It's why I feel Ancestor may be trying to do too much at once.

 

[Txurce]

I just finished and won a game, skipped pyramids, got cathedrals, then picked mastery because cooperation and synagues weren't available. Everything else followed your guide closely. Won science on turn 320. I do think that at a core level, your strategy is excellent, disagreement seems to be about the details of settling and pantheons.

Using you and me as the sample, I'd say the biggest problem is its present lack of consistent success, based on what the first 100 turns require. Too many things can go wrong, from not founding to overwhelming neighbors.

I'm now streaking to a win with India, starting with Wisdom. But the more I think about it, the basis of this strategy is a pretty universal one: grow as much as possible, focus on culture, found a religion that waterfalls into control of WC, and you have a really good shot at winning a SV. In retrospect, I'm not sure there's one specific aspect that goes aginst conventional wisdom to achieve its results.

 

[8bitBob]

There's only really two conventions this guide subverted: wide play is best for SV and tall civs can't benefit from Piety. When I made the guide, I often read posts claiming this and specifically set out to prove it false. From what I was told, near turn 400 was considered a strong SV, so I think I was successful.

 

[Txurce]

There's only really two conventions this guide subverted: wide play is best for SV and tall civs can't benefit from Piety. When I made the guide, I often read posts claiming this and specifically set out to prove it false. From what I was told, near turn 400 was considered a strong SV, so I think I was successful.

Those are two GIGANTIC subversions. I didn't follow the guide itself, but just won my first Immortal game with India, taking Ancient Wisdom, Piety, and staying with my first 4 cities. I was first in pop by a very large margin, got every single GW I wanted, engaged in no wars except an Ancient one where I took two Korean caravans for the gold, was friends with all but two civs, almost won a DV just by planting GD's, and was 19 techs ahead of Korea when I launched on t. 338 (which smashes my old record of 366). It's all really expanded my game. Thanks!

 

[CrazyG]

Holy crap India is strong. I haven't played them for several updates, but its incredible. Medieval era with every city working multiple 8-9 yield tiles? Yes please. I did first game on emperor and it was an easy win on turn 334, despite only 3 cities (I choose not to found a 4th city there were no spots I felt I could defend) and a few tough wars.

That instant pantheon gives you a very consistent opening, god of wisdom is very strong, but don't overlook something with culture as well. I picked God of All in a second game, and I'm leading everyone by 3 policies at start of renaissance. If you choose god of all, and then get culture ruins, you open tradition on turn 4, and unlock the artist on turn 14, the snowball of culture doesn't stop. Right now my capital's population is 38, Egypt picked tradition and only has 27. I was able to very securely grab mausoleum, great library, hanging gardens, then engineer the oracle.

This guide is strong, Piety works very well (IDK who said wide is better for science and be interested to hear the argument why) and the strong growth means that your nation is much more powerful than another science civ would be in terms of production and military.

 

[8bitBob]

Yeah, after looking at things, I have to say, India is just straight superior for this strat after the buffs. India outgrows China at every point in the game except for getting early We Love the Empress Days in the Ancient early Classical eras. This is on top of being more flexible, having a nearly guaranteed religion, much stronger ability to get wonders post Classical and a much more consistent game in general. In my benchmark test game, where I set it up for an optimal win to see the limits, I was able to launch on turn 274. My capitol had a pop of 91 and was still growing every 1-2 turns. It was bonkers.

As if that wasn't enough, India's UU is arguably much stronger than China's. It comes a full 3 or 4 techs earlier than the unit it replaces (only 1 tech after crossbowmen) and does not require a horse resource. With roads and a 35 strength ranged attack that allows unit cycling, India can absolutely ruin any invader.

It's all really expanded my game. Thanks!

No problem. Glad to see the general strat worked for you in the end.

I'd like to thank you guys for your criticisms as they're definitely going to help the guide for the rewrite, which I'll get out before I start work on the Mongolia guide. India has reinvigorated my interest.

Piety works very well (IDK who said wide is better for science and be interested to hear the argument why) and the strong growth means that your nation is much more powerful than another science civ would be in terms of production and military.

The basic argument is that, unlike culture, you get more science the more cities you have due to more specialists, buildings, etc. It also favors traditional faith generation, which leads to more scientists, etc. The argument is sound, and if you manage to expand heavily while also remaining peaceful, wide could definitely lead to a faster win. The problem is actually holding on to all that land and not wasting gold and production on excessive amounts of units.

 

[CrazyG]

I'd like to thank you guys for your criticisms as they're definitely going to help the guide for the rewrite, which I'll get out before I start work on the Mongolia guide. India has reinvigorated my interest.

I'm glad I helped!

As if that wasn't enough, India's UU is arguably much stronger than China's. It comes a full 3 or 4 techs earlier than the unit it replaces (only 1 tech after crossbowmen) and does not require a horse resource. With roads and a 35 strength ranged attack that allows unit cycling, India can absolutely ruin any invader.

The Naga Malla cannot move after attacking. They both have their advantages

The basic argument is that, unlike culture, you get more science the more cities you have due to more specialists, buildings, etc. It also favors traditional faith generation, which leads to more scientists, etc. The argument is sound, and if you manage to expand heavily while also remaining peaceful, wide could definitely lead to a faster win. The problem is actually holding on to all that land and not wasting gold and production on excessive amounts of units.

I just finished on turn 283 on Immortal difficulty, which based on what I seeing posted elsewhere is extremely fast. To test wide vs tall, the only city I founded was my capital, so I'm skeptical that going wide makes sense. The reason is that World Science Inititiave is so powerful, when I have 80 techs and the leading opponent had only 57, I was still getting +19% bonus. This was much higher for most of the game, in the end Carthage was collapsing and down to a score of only 800 (I had 1800, Mongols leading at 2900). That's a global bonus as well, not just a city bonus, so it also applies to yields from trade routes and sainthood (why am I still getting science from trade?). It boosts food growth too!

I also don't know how much having extra per turn faith really gets you, on the last turn I only 125 per turn, but I was able to buy great people non stop and I've won every city state faith competition. I'd estimate that bonus yields are accounting for at least 75% of my faith, I think you get at most 2, maybe 3 extra great scienists with a scaling pantheon.

 

[Txurce]

As an experiment, I played The Netherlands for a SV with a Tradition start (Statecraft/Rationalism/Freedom), with a decision to stick with only four cities. Amsterdam had 4 polders, but none of the other cities had even one, so it wasn't an ideal start. Long story short, Songhai were a runaway 10128 vs #2's 3507, but were only 3 techs ahead of me when they won a CV. (I was fourth in pop, but mostly 7th.) The point here expands on the OP's: that a civ with Tradition and a very small footprint can be competitive in science.

 

[Galbias]

Think you may be underestimating Sainthood a bit. It generates tens of thousands of faith in my games just from the GP.

Wisdom is definitely a far superior scaling pantheon, providing 2-3 times more faith end game than Ancestor would in my games. It's why I feel Ancestor may be trying to do too much at once.

The only time I used Sainthood recently was in my Maya game where I was getting 400+ Faith per turn so I didn't really notice, but the idea was more that you could get most of your faith from Goddess of Wisdom and pick another belief for Enhancer. Thinking about it more though, Sainthood is probably still good, not many other Enhancer beliefs are going to be as directly helpful for the strategy.

That's a global bonus as well, not just a city bonus, so it also applies to yields from trade routes and sainthood (why am I still getting science from trade?). It boosts food growth too!

I think Science from trade is also based on cultural influence now and not just comparitive # of techs.

 

[CrazyG]

Just won turn 337 science victory on Diety, my first win on that difficulty. Only founded 3 cities, lost one around turn 300, tall science play is more than viable

This was an incredible game, alot went wrong, inlcuding being nuked. I was steadily losing ground to the Autocratic alliance of Ottomans, Polynesia and Germany. At the end the other free nations had already collapsed, only my 2 cities remained, with capital taking hits. I continued playing after launching, and my capital fell in 3 turns.

Early on I fought an incredible war against the huns, going from barely surviving to burning a city down. There is zero way China would have won this game, India's abilities came in clutch so many times. The Pantheon is incredible, Naga Malla let me build agribusiness while keeping my elite skirmishers promotions. The extra pressure spread my religion like wildfire, and of course the growth was absurd. I build the food corporation since it was my only option, at the end my capital grew every turn for. Despite getting nuked was back to 98 at the end of the game. Cooperation gave so many yields its disgusting.

One move I made, which I'm not sure if it was correct, was I killed the Huns after they lost their capital. Their score was crap, so eliminating them brought my yield from World Science Initiative from 10% to 24%. It did take a reasonable investment though

The potential cultural snowball of God of All is incredible, especially with culture ruins, and with India you can still found a religion quickly despite your pantheon maxing out at 2 faith. For this build I picked 2 Aesthetics, then 4 Piety then Rationalism. After taking 5 freedom policies, I finished Piety, got 2 more Aesthetics, and then got spaceship procurements. With God of All, you don't need Holy Law (I picked Theocratic Rule and was able to maintain WLTKD almost all game). Built Masoleum of Hali, Gardens, Oracle, Hagia Sophia (to enhance cause my faith was crap), Leaning Tower, Porcelain Tower, Himeji Castle (now has a free GS), Empire State, Stat of Lib, Hubble and CERN.

With that said my faith output was absolute crap for a long time, my per turn never got above 160. So a God of Wisdom approach is definitely viable (I just worry about early culture)

I think Science from trade is also based on cultural influence now and not just comparitive # of techs

Interesting. I also noticed you always get science from allied CS. Thanks!