First of all, i am mostly playing multiplayer, with the NQ group. sometimes i just play public MP, and if i wanna mess with single player i usually play on immortal level. so let me tell you how its like when you open the diplomacy overview in a multiplayer game:
EVERYONE TAKES TRADITION. every goddamned time. and who can blame them? i also always go tradition. once in a full moon i actually see some noob taking liberty though. never actually seen anyone filling honor or piety.
aside from a handful of specific tactics (sacred sites spamming maybe) there is no point in going liberty.
honor/ piety first? dont make me laugh. the sad thing is if i plan to war early, tradition is the way to go. (and i do war early a lot in MP - there is alot of benefit to having lots of land free from potential backstabbers).
as for religion, stonehenge can give a tradition player an easy religion (with aristocracy and high pop, you can get this wonder alot easier then a piety player).
in this post i will mainly compare liberty to tradition, and try to establish traditions obvious superiority. i wont discuss piety not honor, since they are so underpowered its a joke.
i am a fast expander - usually getting a scout + warrior and then straight into 2 settlers - landgrab is important in MP. and even then, tradition. every time. the free monuments in _FOUR_ cities is actually insane for fast expansion. same with the aqueducts. those free hammers (and no maintenance to boot) so damn early by far outweight the hammer and +5% from republic.
the free settler and +50% settler build speed is so late its useless by then. even if you build a monument instantly , and start spamming settlers as soon as you get to the free settler, i will probably have 3 cities with my tradition + fast expanse build.
another overlooked part of the game is that the extra food translates into some hammers when you are building a settler. the +2 food from landed elite often is enough to give you 2 more hammers, which can be as good as liberty's +50% settler build.
happyness wise, meritocracy gives you a +1 happyness for city - AFTER youve built a road (which can take several turns) and 1 happy for 20 citizens (-5% unhappy).
tradition? half of the citizens in your capital are unhappyness free (will translate to between 1 and 30 happyness over the game) and aristocracy gives you 1 happy for 10 citizens (not exactly 10%, due to rounding down, but still waaay better then the -5% meritocracy gives.
also, liberty / wide players will usually NEED that happyness a lot more, due to an outragously high 3 unhappy per city.
science wise? in gnk wide could compete well with tall in science. in here? a 5% cost increase for every tech for every new city. inexperienced players might tell you that it isnt much. however, that number is pushing EXACTLY towards 4-5 cities (ideally) in which case, tradition will be the way to go (ironically, tradition is still better than liberty for going wide O_o)
lets assume this relatively likely scenario: you settled 3 cities (plus a capital). you are at turn 50-80. the cap is responsible for 40% of your research (might be more if you got the NC allready) and your 3 satelites are getting 25%, 20% and 15%.
your new city will get 0-1% for several turns, and after a granary / worker improving 4-5 tiles and a library, might go up to around 8-10% of your research, at which point it STARTS netting positive (after slowing you down for roughly 30-40 turns).
That was for 1 city. now, what if i like to ONCE IN WHILE maybe get a wide empire of 10-15 cities.
every new city will slow me down for 30 something turns, and the more my early cities grow and produce science, the more time its going to take my new cities to reach the percentage needed to compensate and just start netting positive (i am aware this will not be exactly 5% but slightly less due to the way multiplayers work in this game). 10 extra cities from 4 or 5 will probably slow mh science by more then half.
this is in addition to the fact that you are now PISSING EVERYBODY OFF by being so big (this is far more of a problem in multiplayer - handling live humans in a war isnt as easy as dominating deity).
in a side note, i am able to consistenly win a science victory in between 1700-1850 (my earliest one was turn 251) when going tradition tall. when playing wide, i get dragged on for 200 more years before i can win, demonstrating a substantial decrease in science.)
i am sorry if this came off as a rant thread - i am simply sick of seeing a game with so much potential going down the crapper due to some absurdly easy to fix and obvious balance issues. playing hundreds of games simply to do the SAME THING EVERY TIME eventually gets boring.
SUGGESTIONS TO FIX IT: in here i should say i'd rather nerf tradition alot then buff liberty / honor / piety a lot, since buffing the 4 starting trees would just make poland more overpowered.
SCIENCE WISE: turn down the science penalty from cities to 2-3%. personaly i dont think you should have it at all (if you can get happyness and land for a 30 city empire, you SHOULD be rewarded) buuut lets avoid drastic changes.
TRADITION: easy to fix. first simply reduce the starting benefits of the first 4 cities, to the first 3 cities. right now tradition is insanely good at going wide, much more then liberty, partly due to the free buildings you get the moment you settle your cities.
second, remove the faster border growth. with all the wonders and instant monuments, tradition shouldent get fast expanding borders as well, thats just stupid. its about being tall, not wide
third, reduce oligarchy bonus to the first 3 cities you have. possibly tone it down to 30% ranged combat increase (maybe buff the religious one to 50%, since no one ever takes it anyway it obviously needs a buff).
not a must, but perhaps reduce monarchy to 1 gold/happy for 3 citizens. this might be too much after the first 3 nerfs i suggested. this should be the last policy to touch since it encourages a big capital, which is what i believe tradition was originally about.
LIBERTY - get the 50% faster settlers in the opener (but NOT the free settler).
tradition faster border growth goes in here as well (hey, liberty should be about wide, not tradition). republic - -5-10%, maybe change the 5% building bonus to an 8% one.
representation -Each city you found will increase the Culture Culture cost of policies AND TECHS by 33% less than normal. Also starts a Golden Age.
could insert something like this instead of changing the science penalty. this would encourage other trees to stay small, and would only let liberty go wide.
collective rule - a free settler appears. new cities start with 1 extra citizen.
meritocracy - the same
those few policies should fix the slow settler building of liberty (since it should be about FAST expanding, not turn 40 expanding) and the science/ gold issues.
to fix the low happy it is plagued by:
citizenship - the same PLUS +0.5 happy per city (this isnt as much as it seems. with 15 cities it will be 7.5 happyness, hell tradition gets 0.5 happy per citizen in the cap).
finisher - the same, except make it ACTUALLY FREE (the current gp in liberty makes other GP more expensive. this is unlike the free gp you get from faith buying, for instance).
since ive come this far ill also suggest some changes to piety:
opener - same, plus unlock stonehenge. give 2-3 faith in the capital.
organized religion - +1 faith AND CULTURE from shrines and temples.
religions tolerance - same plus +5% science from temples ( right now this tree falls behind badly with pop / science, this will help it stay not - too - far - behind)
rest is fine about this tree i think.
honor can be fixed in a dozen of ways (less unit maintenance, more production for all units, X units are maintenance free or -25% on unit maintenance, etc etc etc...). but it NEEDS to be fixed because right now going to warfare is easier with tradition.
a bunch of other things i want to say, but ill do it fast cuz this was one helluva long post:
rationalism is almost as OP as tradition. move secularism down the tree or change the bonus to +1. the other trees need some buffs.
archers are op. every army online is 90% archers and 1 melee unit. i regularly capture cities with a scout. lower their combat strength, right now archer / composite will beat warrior/spearman/swordsman 1v1. give archers -20% vs cities, they eclipse siege units.
mounted units suck. reduce their city penalty to -20% (from -33%).
if you nerf archers defence, horses will be fine, otherwise:
horseman strength to 13 (from 12)
knight's strength to 22 (from 20).
should be fine.
melee units are fine as they are. the only reason they arent used is because archers are so OP.
siege units die from cities too fast. they should start with cover 1. that way the trick to killing them would be sending in melee units (which would make sense - siege units force the defender to make a move and risk himself).
possibly increase catapult ranged strength by 1.
that is all. good night
EVERYONE TAKES TRADITION. every goddamned time. and who can blame them? i also always go tradition. once in a full moon i actually see some noob taking liberty though. never actually seen anyone filling honor or piety.
aside from a handful of specific tactics (sacred sites spamming maybe) there is no point in going liberty.
honor/ piety first? dont make me laugh. the sad thing is if i plan to war early, tradition is the way to go. (and i do war early a lot in MP - there is alot of benefit to having lots of land free from potential backstabbers).
as for religion, stonehenge can give a tradition player an easy religion (with aristocracy and high pop, you can get this wonder alot easier then a piety player).
in this post i will mainly compare liberty to tradition, and try to establish traditions obvious superiority. i wont discuss piety not honor, since they are so underpowered its a joke.
i am a fast expander - usually getting a scout + warrior and then straight into 2 settlers - landgrab is important in MP. and even then, tradition. every time. the free monuments in _FOUR_ cities is actually insane for fast expansion. same with the aqueducts. those free hammers (and no maintenance to boot) so damn early by far outweight the hammer and +5% from republic.
the free settler and +50% settler build speed is so late its useless by then. even if you build a monument instantly , and start spamming settlers as soon as you get to the free settler, i will probably have 3 cities with my tradition + fast expanse build.
another overlooked part of the game is that the extra food translates into some hammers when you are building a settler. the +2 food from landed elite often is enough to give you 2 more hammers, which can be as good as liberty's +50% settler build.
happyness wise, meritocracy gives you a +1 happyness for city - AFTER youve built a road (which can take several turns) and 1 happy for 20 citizens (-5% unhappy).
tradition? half of the citizens in your capital are unhappyness free (will translate to between 1 and 30 happyness over the game) and aristocracy gives you 1 happy for 10 citizens (not exactly 10%, due to rounding down, but still waaay better then the -5% meritocracy gives.
also, liberty / wide players will usually NEED that happyness a lot more, due to an outragously high 3 unhappy per city.
science wise? in gnk wide could compete well with tall in science. in here? a 5% cost increase for every tech for every new city. inexperienced players might tell you that it isnt much. however, that number is pushing EXACTLY towards 4-5 cities (ideally) in which case, tradition will be the way to go (ironically, tradition is still better than liberty for going wide O_o)
lets assume this relatively likely scenario: you settled 3 cities (plus a capital). you are at turn 50-80. the cap is responsible for 40% of your research (might be more if you got the NC allready) and your 3 satelites are getting 25%, 20% and 15%.
your new city will get 0-1% for several turns, and after a granary / worker improving 4-5 tiles and a library, might go up to around 8-10% of your research, at which point it STARTS netting positive (after slowing you down for roughly 30-40 turns).
That was for 1 city. now, what if i like to ONCE IN WHILE maybe get a wide empire of 10-15 cities.
every new city will slow me down for 30 something turns, and the more my early cities grow and produce science, the more time its going to take my new cities to reach the percentage needed to compensate and just start netting positive (i am aware this will not be exactly 5% but slightly less due to the way multiplayers work in this game). 10 extra cities from 4 or 5 will probably slow mh science by more then half.
this is in addition to the fact that you are now PISSING EVERYBODY OFF by being so big (this is far more of a problem in multiplayer - handling live humans in a war isnt as easy as dominating deity).
in a side note, i am able to consistenly win a science victory in between 1700-1850 (my earliest one was turn 251) when going tradition tall. when playing wide, i get dragged on for 200 more years before i can win, demonstrating a substantial decrease in science.)
i am sorry if this came off as a rant thread - i am simply sick of seeing a game with so much potential going down the crapper due to some absurdly easy to fix and obvious balance issues. playing hundreds of games simply to do the SAME THING EVERY TIME eventually gets boring.
SUGGESTIONS TO FIX IT: in here i should say i'd rather nerf tradition alot then buff liberty / honor / piety a lot, since buffing the 4 starting trees would just make poland more overpowered.
SCIENCE WISE: turn down the science penalty from cities to 2-3%. personaly i dont think you should have it at all (if you can get happyness and land for a 30 city empire, you SHOULD be rewarded) buuut lets avoid drastic changes.
TRADITION: easy to fix. first simply reduce the starting benefits of the first 4 cities, to the first 3 cities. right now tradition is insanely good at going wide, much more then liberty, partly due to the free buildings you get the moment you settle your cities.
second, remove the faster border growth. with all the wonders and instant monuments, tradition shouldent get fast expanding borders as well, thats just stupid. its about being tall, not wide
third, reduce oligarchy bonus to the first 3 cities you have. possibly tone it down to 30% ranged combat increase (maybe buff the religious one to 50%, since no one ever takes it anyway it obviously needs a buff).
not a must, but perhaps reduce monarchy to 1 gold/happy for 3 citizens. this might be too much after the first 3 nerfs i suggested. this should be the last policy to touch since it encourages a big capital, which is what i believe tradition was originally about.
LIBERTY - get the 50% faster settlers in the opener (but NOT the free settler).
tradition faster border growth goes in here as well (hey, liberty should be about wide, not tradition). republic - -5-10%, maybe change the 5% building bonus to an 8% one.
representation -Each city you found will increase the Culture Culture cost of policies AND TECHS by 33% less than normal. Also starts a Golden Age.
could insert something like this instead of changing the science penalty. this would encourage other trees to stay small, and would only let liberty go wide.
collective rule - a free settler appears. new cities start with 1 extra citizen.
meritocracy - the same
those few policies should fix the slow settler building of liberty (since it should be about FAST expanding, not turn 40 expanding) and the science/ gold issues.
to fix the low happy it is plagued by:
citizenship - the same PLUS +0.5 happy per city (this isnt as much as it seems. with 15 cities it will be 7.5 happyness, hell tradition gets 0.5 happy per citizen in the cap).
finisher - the same, except make it ACTUALLY FREE (the current gp in liberty makes other GP more expensive. this is unlike the free gp you get from faith buying, for instance).
since ive come this far ill also suggest some changes to piety:
opener - same, plus unlock stonehenge. give 2-3 faith in the capital.
organized religion - +1 faith AND CULTURE from shrines and temples.
religions tolerance - same plus +5% science from temples ( right now this tree falls behind badly with pop / science, this will help it stay not - too - far - behind)
rest is fine about this tree i think.
honor can be fixed in a dozen of ways (less unit maintenance, more production for all units, X units are maintenance free or -25% on unit maintenance, etc etc etc...). but it NEEDS to be fixed because right now going to warfare is easier with tradition.
a bunch of other things i want to say, but ill do it fast cuz this was one helluva long post:
rationalism is almost as OP as tradition. move secularism down the tree or change the bonus to +1. the other trees need some buffs.
archers are op. every army online is 90% archers and 1 melee unit. i regularly capture cities with a scout. lower their combat strength, right now archer / composite will beat warrior/spearman/swordsman 1v1. give archers -20% vs cities, they eclipse siege units.
mounted units suck. reduce their city penalty to -20% (from -33%).
if you nerf archers defence, horses will be fine, otherwise:
horseman strength to 13 (from 12)
knight's strength to 22 (from 20).
should be fine.
melee units are fine as they are. the only reason they arent used is because archers are so OP.
siege units die from cities too fast. they should start with cover 1. that way the trick to killing them would be sending in melee units (which would make sense - siege units force the defender to make a move and risk himself).
possibly increase catapult ranged strength by 1.
that is all. good night
