Traits?

[mitsho]

This subject seems to have been forgotten: I didn't found a thread like this.

We have a problem regarding traits. If we want more civilizations, we have to have more traits. (I hate to have two civs having the same traits)

And perhaps we have to kick the religious trait out because of the new religion concept.

So what are your wanted (new) traits besides

industrious, expansionist, militaristic, commercial, scientific, (religious)?

monumentalistic? nomadic? cultural?

Or do we need other benefits for the traits?

mfG mitsho

 

[MaisseArsouye]

Nomadic is a very good idea. We could add traditionnalist/conservative, ecologist, isolationnist, individualistic ( is this correct ??? ), hunter-harvester ( still correct ?? ),...

And every civ would get 3 traits to increase possibilities.

 

[Drakan]

Cultural is a very good one.

 

[Batho]

How about a Diplomatic Trait?

Free embasies --> generally better relations --> easier to trade

 

[dh_epic]

Collectivist, Individualist -- i can see some people getting sensitive if their cultures are judged by these labels...

Traditionalist, Superstitious -- it's this kind of thing that may describe cultures and create interesting differences, but is probably more trouble than it's worth. nobody likes to think of their own culture in these terms, but they love to think about other cultures this way.

Environmental, Cultural, Efficient (how is this different from Commercial? I don't know), Legalist... diplomatic could be interesting, but only if they really genuinely revamp the way diplomacy is done in the game.

 

[MaisseArsouye]

I told about "tradionalist" in a "conservative" way. Some people are much more attached to old traditions than other. They want to preserve their identity, and I think it's a positive thing. If think England and Japan are good examples of "tradionalist/conservative" nations. It doens't make these nations less modern or reluctant to technologies or new concepts.

Sure, the concept of collectivist/individualist civ is difficult. But it's obvious that the American are much more individualists than, let's say zulus or arabs.

Maybe the concept famillial/tribal should be added too ?

 

[Diogenes183]

There is a thread that is similar to (but the not exactly about the same thing) as this one:

Civilization Uniqueness

 

[Chukchi Husky]

How about traditional or architectual?

 

[mitsho]

You have to keep in mind that you have to have enough different bonusses to the traits. Therefore I would put architectual and monumentalistic together and give them a bonus on building wonders. Other bonusses that would fit them, would also fit the industrial trait and are therefore not wanted.

@diogenes183 I know that this thread exists, but I wanted to discuss traits in this thread. independent from the discussions about civ's. I don't want to give some civs traits in this thread.

The problems with the bonusses is that we don't know how civIV will look like. And therefore we can't distribute the bonusses.

mfG mitsho

 

[Diogenes183]

@diogenes183 I know that this thread exists, but I wanted to discuss traits in this thread. independent from the discussions about civ's. I don't want to give some civs traits in this thread.
mfG mitsho

Indeed. I was not nocking your thread. I just thought that perhaps anyone interested in this thread would also find the other interesting as well.

 

[mitsho]

Oh sorry, then I have to apologize myself.

mitsho

 

[Chukchi Husky]

The increase in new traits would have to be proportionally equal to the amount of new civs.

 

[sealman]

The problems with the bonusses is that we don't know how civIV will look like. And therefore we can't distribute the bonusses.

mfG mitsho

True, however, what bonuses would these traits give using CIV III as a basis?

 

[mitsho]

traits listed in chronological order in this thread

trait name: general bonus (bonus explicitly in civ3)

monumentalistic/architectual: bonus in building (wonders are cheaper)
nomadic: increase in movement? cities can be moved? (settler/worker have 1 movement plus)
cultural: easier to accumulate culture (the doubling of culture for buildings needs less time)
tradionalist/conservative*: bonus for older things (defense bonus for older units when fighting against a more modern one (eg. spear against tank)
ecologist: less pollution (fabrics produce less pollution, worker need less time to clean up)
isolationistic (opposite of expansionistic): 'nationalistic' (no propaganda possible, war happiness when fighting a defensive war, war weariness when fighting a offensive war, needs more culture to flip)
diplomatic: better relations (cheaper embassies, other civs are more friendly, etc)
collectivist: ??? *
individualist: ??? *

*traits that I had to be very creative and therefore aren't the best to chose for the new traits

These are only MY ideas, quickly thought, so don't count on them

mfG mitsho

 

[Mewtarthio]

monumentalistic/architectual: bonus in building (wonders are cheaper)

How is this different from Industrious?

nomadic: increase in movement? cities can be moved? (settler/worker have 1 movement plus)

I like the settler/worker movement bonus idea. Mobile cities would be way too unbalancing, not to mention even more unrealistic than the Wonder system (okay, let's just pick up those Hanging Gardens and put them up on that hillside) and vaguely unsettling to watch (look, sir, New York City is running away!)

cultural: easier to accumulate culture (the doubling of culture for buildings needs less time)

This seems like a good idea. What sort of Civs would get this, though? Obviously they'd need a high "culture score" to be included in the game.

tradionalist/conservative*: bonus for older things (defense bonus for older units when fighting against a more modern one (eg. spear against tank)

So, upgrading is bad?

ecologist: less pollution (fabrics produce less pollution, worker need less time to clean up)

This is actually a pretty good idea. Now, what Civs come to mind for this?

isolationistic (opposite of expansionistic): 'nationalistic' (no propaganda possible, war happiness when fighting a defensive war, war weariness when fighting a offensive war, needs more culture to flip)

No propaganda is just too unbalanced. Ever fought an Industrial/Modern war against a Democracy? There's already a certain amount of War Happiness generated in a defensive war for representative governments (though it soon fades away). I like the culture-flip defense, though.

diplomatic: better relations (cheaper embassies, other civs are more friendly, etc)

I don't think that anything should be included that tampers with the AI. Imagine if you were fighting a human player. They wouldn't think "Oh, he's diplomatic, that means I should be friendlier to him."

 

[socralynnek]

diplomatic: better relations (cheaper embassies, other civs are more friendly, etc)

I don't think that anything should be included that tampers with the AI. Imagine if you were fighting a human player. They wouldn't think "Oh, he's diplomatic, that means I should be friendlier to him."

Two things come tomy mind:
1. Maybe diplomatic civs should be able to buy/sell contacts from the beginning (maybe even maps)
2. Maybe diplomatic civs should receive a trade bonus, that means 5% or so from every trade income is added to your stock.

 

[Punda The Panda]

I don't think Traits will be a part of Civilization 4.

I like the "Diplomatic" trait, but it would be weak, and very hard to implement.

A "Peaceful" or "Nonviolent" trait would be nice. Domestic concerns would get bonuses, while military units would recieve penalties (but wait, Mr. Potatomoto, you shouldn't get penalties from a trait! )

The "Ecology" trait is snazzy. Greeeeen!
But the only civ I can think of that's even remotely ecologically sound is.. wait.. there aren't any. Maybe somewhere in Europe...

The "Cultural" trait is something best encompassed by the Babylonians (Science + Religion), and "Architectural" is a "Cultural" trait.. because Architecture is art.

So the only traits I can think of so far worth adding would be "Nonviolent" and "Ecological", and they both sound pretty weak.

If Firaxis wants to add a bunch of civilizations, they'll probably scrap the "Trait" system.

..But maybe they don't want to add a bunch of civilizations. Why should they? There are plenty.

 

[mitsho]

more civs are good at any time.
So, @punda the panda, with what would you replace the trait system. I think it's pretty good.

and remember, I never said my ideas should be good or balanced. I was asked to work the thing a bit out concerning civ3. And remember, civ4 is another game. And perhaps the new civic's or religion system allows to create new traits?

mfG mitsho

 

[Chukchi Husky]

traits listed in chronological order in this thread
'nationalistic' (no propaganda possible, war happiness when fighting a defensive war, war weariness when fighting a offensive war, needs more culture to flip)

Instead of 'no propaganda possible', make propaganda cheaper and more effective?