Transition to mid/end game in immortal?

intutama

Warlord
Joined
Dec 8, 2012
Messages
117
Hello all,
I have the problem that I usually don't finish my immortal games because after wiping out one or two civs, I kind of fell backward while rebuilding my economy. It feels like no matter how hard I try to tech up I'm always facing much stronger units, and while I try to conquer the biggest neighbor left some other dude gets a science or whatever victory. If I try to go for a science victory I also usually get beaten (I really have no idea what to tech when going to science).

So I'm wondering what's the usual thing to do after you conquest two neighbors? Do you go for steel/rifle and just flood the other civs' infantry or tanks ? Or is there a better way?

As attached file I attached a save with the classical situation where I wonder "ok, what now?" from the NC with Justinian. I'd put some screenshots but I don't know what's interesting - just imagine your usual half-continent wide post-rush wasteland...

Thanks for your help!
 

Attachments

Took a look.

Well, there's "transition" to late game or whatever, but that still doesn't preclude the fact that there were a lot of mistakes made in the earlier game, which is where most problems lie anyway.

It's hard to tell from late game saves what all has a occurred in the from the start, but I can glean some info from the save.

I'd chalked this up to several things - lack of focus, useless building, poor worker management, Great People or lack thereof and usage, poor tech decision, poor economic base, etc.

Nople is not exactly an ideal Bureau cap and has poor food, although FPs can be farmed. But you have made it your Bureau cap and murderized it in the meantime. One of the keys to the game, especially a longer term game, is to setup a good research and economic base. Much of this lies with the capital. Now, granted, very early the cap will take some hits with whipping to get out settler/workers for early expansion, but this must gradually, and as quickly as possible, transition to secondary cities, allowing the capital to grow or a) running those first scientists for academy and then cottage working. If a cap is not suitable for Bureau then it is advisable to look for a better spot. The fact that Nople has been whipped to the beejeezus is a glaring problem here..you have no reasearch base here, and Nople not great in the first place. Improvements around Nople are a bit hodgepodge.

Regardlesss, when I see stone right there my first though always is Pyramids. In that case, I'd be making Mids a priority in which case Nople can just be farmed and run specialists when it can, using Caste Systems at times. Take advantage of your great Spiritual trait. (Stone also allows one to use wonder for failed gold as well) Anyway, Representation is such a powerful early civic to have. You can still setup a bureau cap elsewhere if found, or otherwise set up some cites for cottages just to have that economic base, but with Rep get specialists, especially scientists or merchants running early is a huge boost.

Next, I'm don't think you have a plan or much of an idea about what to do with buildings. I see so many useless buildings being built. Granaries and Forges are the only must buildings, and when your Empire starts to get as large then Courthouses in some cities are needed. Obviously, you are having Strike problems now.

But speaking of Strikes, may gawd! why are you not trading resources. Trade resources for those you need as soon as you are able, and after Currency (such an important tech), trade what you can for any gold per turn. Renegotiate those trades as soon as you can for more GPT. I went in and made all the trades I could and put you in the black immediately. Plus, beg for gold from all Pleased AIs. Trading also helps boost diplo relations. Also, you are running Theocracy but not in a religion. That is doing nothing or you but increasing your maintenance.

Not sure keeping Monty as a vassal was of much use. He has nothing. I usually want my vassals to be able to do something for me like fight or tech, unless toward the end stages where I'm just looking to finish up the game. I would have put him out of his misery. Willem can do something although he does not have much at the moment. (Note: you can direct vassals tech path)

I'm not a fan of Knights or Catas for that matter, although Catas are not bad. However, Knights effectiveness is limited to useless on higher levels. But the big problem is Knights put you on a problematic tech path of techs AIs prioritize which a) limits your trading opportunities and b) takes focus away from stronger/better tech paths like Edu>Lib>Military Tradition for the much better Curs.

So at the core here, you've not setup a strong economic base really and likely teched a great deal of bad techs that you could have easily trade for. Furthermore, while you seemed very focused on getting to Catas and using them, there is a lot less focus on other important things and you put yourself in a position right now where you are very limited. Conversely, you might have gone for a better path to Curs, which are a longer lasting and more effective unit, bulbed your way to Lib>MT, back traded for all those techs anyway and generally be in a stronger position now.

As for this game, it may be salvageable. Catas are most certainly spent, so all I can suggest is sit back for a while and recover your economy while focusing on empire management to improve your cities and economy. Use that prophet for a golden age and spit out some great people like GSs and GMs to bulb some techs like Edu and use GMs for trade missions to the Temple of Artemis city. Look for good tech trade ops (including gold). Whip out some courthouse where you can and maybe build wealth in cities that just don't need anything. Some good cities could use some Libraries. Getting six Unis and Oxford up quick may help with research too but not a really strong Ox city has been established - still anything would help here.

It would take some time to get in any military advantage situation here, but you can still go for Cavs or a Rifle/Cannon/Artie combo and surprise some of the generally weaker AIs like Pacal or Capac.

Again though, much of your problems here occurred thousands of yours ago, so you may want to rethink some of your gameplay in the early stages.
 
Basically you are building some unnecessary stuff, wealth & courthouses can be much better now.
Also so many trades you are not making with Resis, 16 gold for stuff like 1 pig?
~35 easy gold / turn available there.
Nappy would buy your world map for 80g.

Recovering your economy is not difficult here, if done right.
You also have your gpriest for a golden age, Paci & Reli will be available too for gp generation (mercantalism also not bad), can easily create ~2 great merchants if you wait for some bigger cities with good food being ready to run 5+ merchants during the GA. For around 3k gold.

You can delete some warriors and replace them with Cataps where happy is needed.
Tile management is also important now, make sure cottages are worked.

Willy has printing press for a nice boost as well, if you tech something he doesn't have yet you can trade.

I *knew* this will be a cross post again /wave Lymo ;)
 
;)
 
Ever heard of espionage economy? Its extreme effeciency lets you easily stay in tech with ais and have gold over for rushing and upgrading. Go nationalism for ep bonus and drafting and build only siegeunits to complement drafts. I can easily win most maps immortal huge 17 ais normal speed domination victory before they launch. Also bulb monopoly techs and trade or steal monopoly from techleader and trade
 
Thanks for your answers (especially @Iymond !), they are very useful. I guess there are a number of aspects of the game I still need to improve greatly... I'll be more careful with my capital and with trading resources from now one (and making sure I'm in a religion when picking a religious policy :crazyeye:). I obviously still have some bad habits (ruining capital, getting lazy and automatizing production) from emperor games I need to lose.

I could finally win this game by overwhelming the other AIs with rifles and cannons, but it worked only because they weren't too big.
 
I'm a serious deity player, but play on immortal because I experience the game more fun that way. At least until I'm good enough to consistently win on deity. :crazyeye: I know your struggle!

However IDK how pushy I should be about my advertisement of my YouTube channel.. But I just finished and started to upload a new Immortal game that I think went really well :) I played and finished this game.. with this forum thread in mind. Because I have been in the same spot as you a ton of times. I play on Immortal.. so you might pick up a trick or two to improve your own gameplay..
I know i at least have learned a ton from watching other YouTube play civ 4

Anyways here is the link to the first game in the series!

 
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