Tricky start (imo) I have struggled with - little help?

[Build2Much]

I was inspired by NC 390 to dust off a start I had put on the shelf because I struggle with it but I don't think it should really be that hard - I give you Ragnar the Farmer.

Over the years I have played Ragnar many times at lower levels, so I understand his challenges - I will be playing this on Immortal. This is obviously an inland start with a river (good) but Fishing is useless to the capital and no use for Hunting at the moment. I think the obvious opening move is to settle the PH 1SE, build a Worker and tech Agriculture. Now I will give away some spoilers which will explain what I find difficult.

Spoiler :

Doing what I just described seems a good move - there is lots of food and forest, river tiles to cottage, even with less than ideal starting techs, there is no reason for your worker to run out of things to do early as you tech to Bronze Working. The problems arise when you realize there is absolutely no happiness anywhere it is reasonable to settle and you have SO MUCH LAND for Barbs to spawn in. Good news is that it is very easy to get a woodsman 3 Axe if one wanted to. We are not isolated and in fact we have a prime target imo who happens to have a little happiness available. Acquiring Copper to protect ourselves (and maybe even taking out a neighbor) while getting enough commerce to keep the tech rate up I have found a challenge.

I think my tech path(s) may not be ideal, or I just need to deal with the fact that this is a relatively slow opening (or I'm unecessarily making it a relatively slow opening). I have time this morning so I'll play for a while and hopefully like my position. If anyone would like to play along, WB file is attached. Thanks!

 

[Build2Much]

Ok, I have made it to T32 and it is decision time! Here is what we have learned so far:

Spoiler :

Moved Scout to to desert tile 2E1N, start working clockwise on the coast. Settle PH 1SE.

T5 meet Zara, he is SE and not that far away
T6 Zara seems to be on the coast, has sugar. City is not on a hill.
T8 Zara also has Elephants
T9 confirmed Zara is up against the coast, we can block him in
T10 finish Ag, start Mining
T13 worker out, start barracks
T18 finish mining, start BW
T22 finish barracks, start Warrior, size 2, 2nd corn finished
T26 meet Peter. He must be somewhere West. Warrior out, start another Warrior. Will hit size 4 next turn.
T29 Warrior out, start Settler (7 turns). Size 4. Can speed up BW by 1 turn working plains river tile. 3 corns farmed, moving to PH 2E of Nidaros to mine.
T32 finish BW. there is Copper north. I have quite a bit fog busted N, W, E, Zara is SE, SW is a mystery

Here is my current map, with potential city placements. I know that my scout is leaving a couple of tiles with fog, wanted to show as much as I could. I have either 4 turns until a settler, or I could switch to slavery and whip to get the settler out 2 turns faster (I hate to whip the capital like this though).

Spoiler :

To me there are 2 options where the city will not be connected and a 3rd where it will:
1. Go north and get the copper (I put the city on the coast because its Ragnar...is that dumb? Could also settle the desert tile and forgo the Trading Post down the line. Ridiculous amount of food available to that city if I do that and would eliminate a city spot I marked - could go one S instead if available later).
2. Go south to build a WB and have access to commerce - start the process of blocking off Zara.
3. Go west, connected by River but really only have the shared corn to work right now and I don't know what lurks in the shadows.

Down the line, settling up the River seems a good idea, like a city 1 SW of the corn being fog busted eventually.

So what would be the best way to approach this?

 

[Gumbolt]

Oh you built a barracks before your second city? You don't have any metal or horse yet? This has delayed your second city by 4 turns. Better to get the city out and have the land fogbusted by the city.

No way you would rush the AI with one city.I rarely build barracks before 2000bc.

That is a very juicy start albeit you are low commerce so you will need cottages and to clear the forest. You could axe rush the Ethiopians. Ivory is a nice happiness resource.

Too many fortified units at this date. You have not properly scouted land around your capital.

I would settle towards the Ethiopians to block them in.

 

[Build2Much]

Why is your settler 4 turns late? Guessing you built an extra warrior which would explain why you are at size 4. Better to get the city out and have the land fogbusted by the city.

This is correct, I did not time it to finish at the same time as BW ended - I chose to get an extra fogbuster out first after building the Barracks, which was definitely questionable. BW could not have finished any earlier without skipping Ag (there were only 2 tiles with 1 commerce each available) which no one would have done (at least I don't think so).

Update to my city placement possibilities after thinking about it a little more

Spoiler where to settle :

The southern city could still be on the coast next to the fish if I moved it 1E and while that would lose the other city spot that might be a smarter play? Trying to shoehorn 2 cities in there to completely block it off may be overkill.

I really think the first city has to be the copper and I'm leaning towards settling the desert, which I don't think I've done previously - fewer roads needed, give up some boat building in 4000 years I guess? Ragnar needs Axes.

 

[Build2Much]

@Gumbolt you just gave the opposite settling advice to what I thought I needed to do. When I struggle, this is definitely where I struggle.

 

[sampsa]

I think with those tiles you have two possibilities - to either stagnate at size 3 building the first settler or to go with 6->3 whip and I think the latter is better as you need quite a lot of warriors. I think barracks is a mistake, but maybe not a huge deal.

I can almost guarantee that the worker should be only chopping now i.e. to mine is a mistake. My 2nd city would be 3W as it's clearly the best spot -wise due to 2 extra for connection. After you steal the corn from capital you can go for 4->2 whips and slow build if becomes an issue. Perhaps 3rd city should claim the copper. For me the obvious spot 1S of copper. With copper the barb threat is over.

 

[Izuul]

What difficulty is this?

Edit: Nevermind. I reread the first post and found it.

 

[Build2Much]

Also I guess some might want to see the rest of my scouting SE since I got yelled at for not scouting enough tiles.

Spoiler :

 

[Gumbolt]

You need to decide if you want to do an early rush or focus on economy. There is enough land for you to settle peacefully. 3 west to share corn is good for commerce. Worker needs to be chopping here and maybe skip Ah to get to pottery.I guess there was downtime waiting for BW?

With creative Ethiopians will get faster border pops.If he is blocked in by the coast he will grab city spots closer to you.

3xcorn with 3 pop whip is always good.

 

[sampsa]

With such high quality land and FIN I would not be risking axe rushing a CRE leader, but I'm sure it will work with accurate play.

 

[Build2Much]

I think with those tiles you have two possibilities - to either stagnate at size 3 building the first settler or to go with 6->3 whip and I think the latter is better as you need quite a lot of warriors. I think barracks is a mistake, but maybe not a huge deal.

I can almost guarantee that the worker should be only chopping now i.e. to mine is a mistake. My 2nd city would be 3W as it's clearly the best spot -wise due to 2 extra for connection. After you steal the corn from capital you can go for 4->2 whips and slow build if becomes an issue. Perhaps 3rd city should claim the copper. For me the obvious spot 1S of copper. With copper the barb threat is over.

I would have wasted at minimum 1 worker turn sitting in forest if I had not moved to mine the hill. That might have been the play, but that is why he is mining (plus, I knew the answer because I've played it before, but naked tile might have been the copper, didn't know until this turn).

Can you expound on the copper city? I think desert might be ok because it is connected faster, can take 2 corns from the capital if the capital is working cottages, and could run scientists easily at size 5 with that much food. Hill city is fine too, do you prefer it because the corn can be farmed and delay AH?

 

[Build2Much]

Oh you built a barracks before your second city? You don't have any metal or horse yet? This has delayed your second city by 4 turns. Better to get the city out and have the land fogbusted by the city.

No way you would rush the AI with one city.I rarely build barracks before 2000bc.

That is a very juicy start albeit you are low commerce so you will need cottages and to clear the forest. You could axe rush the Ethiopians. Ivory is a nice happiness resource.

Too many fortified units at this date. You have not properly scouted land around your capital.

I would settle towards the Ethiopians to block them in.

With such high quality land and FIN I would not be risking axe rushing a CRE leader, but I'm sure it will work with accurate play.

I recall this being a challenge when attempted, plus there is typically pressure coming from the other flank that can't be ignored, while trying to build cottages and work those cottages so you don't fall way behind in tech.

 

[Build2Much]

3xcorn with 3 pop whip is always good.

This is going to sound weird I'm sure on a game that is 20 years old and it is the dominant strategy, but my whipping game is sub-par and I know it.

 

[sampsa]

I would have wasted at minimum 1 worker turn sitting in forest if I had not moved to mine the hill. That might have been the play, but that is why he is mining (plus, I knew the answer because I've played it before, but naked tile might have been the copper, didn't know until this turn).

I think losing 1T is fine. I also always plan chops so that the possibility for regrowth is maximized thus you can use that turn to start the chops from a better spot.

Can you expound on the copper city? I think desert might be ok because it is connected faster, can take 2 corns from the capital if the capital is working cottages, and could run scientists easily at size 5 with that much food. Hill city is fine too, do you prefer it because the corn can be farmed and delay AH?

Yes, mostly just that you can/should delay AH. 1S of copper seems best as it has both tiles on 1st ring. It really is that simple most of the time. You are correct that later that city can be used for 1st GS.

 

[Gumbolt]

Advantage of leaving the AI alive is 2c trade routes. That would require a sea or road route. Then you can abuse financial trait.

 

[Build2Much]

lots of good feedback to process. Question on barb defense - I built a barracks (a)because it was cheap and (b)because I know I will probably need to defend myself

Neither of @Gumbolt or @sampsa seem inclined to go get the Copper immediately, and the connected city seems like what I will actually do (pretty sure that was the very first thing I did when I played this map). Trust my cover Warriors for a while?

 

[sampsa]

lots of good feedback to process. Question on barb defense - I built a barracks (a)because it was cheap and (b)because I know I will probably need to defend myself

Neither of @Gumbolt or @sampsa seem inclined to go get the Copper immediately, and the connected city seems like what I will actually do (pretty sure that was the very first thing I did when I played this map). Trust my cover Warriors for a while?

Yes barracks is cheap, but getting a warrior quickly to a good location might be worth more. Cover warriors will defend pretty well against barb archers, but of course you will sometimes lose a fight.

 

[Fippy]

With a FIN leader and copper, blocking an AI has no priority on Immortal.
Can always plan an Axepult (or even better Jumbos if available somewhere) later.

An optimal settler strategy might be:
grow to size 2, start your settler until corn #2 got improved..
then switch back to warrior and grow to size 3 - finish settler.

 

[sampsa]

With a FIN leader and copper, blocking an AI has no priority on Immortal.

Yes, forgot to comment on blocking. There is absolutely no reason or purpose to block. With strong land the correct way to play is often more SimCity than people like to think. Strongest sites first!

 

[Build2Much]

Ok, another hour in brings me to T51 and this is definitely going better than it sometimes does. Good advice and actually thinking things through always helps!

Spoiler what the Vikings have been up to :

T36 Settler out. Start Warrior to grow. Switch to slavery. Move worker to start Chopping
T38 Warrior done, grow in 1 turn, will switch to Worker for chop hammers. Found Uppsala 4W (river PH). Warrior build there.
T41 Barb archer appears way out to the NW. I am fogbusting all the way to 11 tiles W of Nidaros (which appears to be the coast) and 7 tiles N, but can't see far NW or close SW. Dangerous.
T42 Have to move scout for archer. Barb warrior appears SE from Zara. Worker 2 finishes, 1 turn Warrior starts in Nidaros. Move worker to forest NE
T43 finish wheel, start Pottery (9 turns). Move warrior out towards SSW. Start settler 3 - five turns with a worker 1 chop finished this turn.
T45 have to move scout again way out west. Warrior from Uppsala finishes, start Warrior. Move out SW. Chop finishes, start road 1 NE of Nidaros.
T47 Settler 3 out early with 2nd chop done, start worker 3. Settler move to hill 1S of copper. 5 turns from Pottery. S is fogbusted, found the coast. Deep SW, deep NW and anything that comes from Zara are the only problems now.
T48 settle Haithabu, working ocean tile takes a turn off pottery even unconnected, which I wasn't sure would be the case. Barb warrior is close to borders SE - Zara time to do something please!
T50 start mining copper with 2 workers. Barb SE moved back towards Zara. Start 1 more warrior (1 turn).
T51 Pottery finishes 1 turn earlier than originally expected. Barb warrior comes back my way, send my new warrior out to intercept and hopefully save my mine from pillaging. There are 2 Barb Archers NW but one is already injured. Start granary in Nidaros to whip next turn. Will start first cottage next turn (just finished a chop near Uppsala).

Nidaros will pop borders again on the next turn.

Spoiler here are the current maps and dots :

Next steps - whipping a Granary in Nidaros actually a good idea? I would likely follow that with one more settler to go south to the fish spot. Is there a spot that should be higher priority?
Tech - I would go Writing here automatically and plan to whip libraries. Zara has built Stonehenge and is creative so when he moves N he will have a little bonus culture with him, FYI.
Barbs are completely under control, just depends on what comes down from the way north I think, but doesn't appear to be a crazy conga line started.