Jorissimo's opening training shadow thread

[jorissimo]

Updating my opinion - I see now that this save is using BUFFY - tilts the weighting in favor of failgold + whip overflow

Edit: Posting from the archives:

1. https://forums.civfanatics.com/thre...s-from-a-10-year-veteran.574724/post-14444013
2. https://forums.civfanatics.com/thre...s-from-a-10-year-veteran.574724/post-14463743

I looked into that wonderbread stuff. Really intriguing. Although I wonder if this stuff really works on normal speed with barbs on and without a strong early UU. Would be interested in seeing an example of that.

 

[sampsa]

Well, doesn't work on a grandiose scale, but still somewhat works. =2 is a lot in isolation especially.

 

[jorissimo]

T49

Spoiler :

I have:
- BW, Myst, Agri, Hunting, AH, Pottery
- 3 cities
- 4 pop (Seoul recently whipped a settler and Pyongyang a worker)
- 4 warriors
- 2 workers
- 1 fp farm, 1 pig pasture, 1 corn farm, 1 road (built outside my border, while workers had a move to spare on the way to the corn)
- 18 bpt at 100%

I decided to back a bit, to t28, in order to better optimize worker turns. Switched to Slavery upon finishing settler 1. I decided to let my initial worker chop a bit more rather than improve the ivory, making its way to the pigs through the hills. When worker 2 came out of Seoul, it moved on the formerly forested grassland hill 1 NE of Seoul and chopped it together with the initial worker on the next turn. Then the 2 of them improved the pig, followed by the corn. One of those workers (the one who finished first), was then sent south to improve the sheep (it put 1 turn into a cottage on its way, on the tile it's currently standing on). The other one went to improve the ivory.

Capital went worker before second settler, then finished a partly-built warrior. Chops all went into the worker or the settler. Pyongyang grew to size 2 on a warrior, then switched to a worker and whipped it this turn.

Seoul's borders will pop on the next turn but I don't think it will encompass the horse. Archers are spawning (there is one marked on the map), and they can start beelining our stuff on the next turn. So I think archery could make sense here to flick in before Writing. There is space for a 5th city near the clam. And it's not visible on the map, but there is land 1 NW of the clam, where a 6th city could go. Not sure about the longer-term plan yet, but I don't think I'll have to attack at construction. Engineering could be an option if there are no good additional city spots. Otherwise cuirs.

Qin (not "Mao", brain glitch) is now also to our south.

Edit: I realized a small suboptimality I made earlier. The worker should have put that turn into the eastern fp, which will have to be farmed to irrigate the rice. Instead it put it into the western fp.

 

[a pen-dragon]

Looks good.

Consider settling the clam city 1NE on the plains as there are a few small benefits:

• it has more land tiles, which is generally better
• it does not orphan the grassland 2N2E
• it does not burn a forest
• it uses the weaker tile (plains instead of grassland)

Of these the forest is the most important argument. The only downsides I can see is that it is (I think?) marginally more distant, and we need to scout to check for a second seafood that might be ruined.

 

[jorissimo]

Consider settling the clam city 1NE on the plains as there are a few small benefits:

It would unfortunately be too close to Pyongyang. This is the only possible spot.

 

[a pen-dragon]

It would unfortunately be too close to Pyongyang. This is the only possible spot.

Sorry, I missed that.

 

[sampsa]

I wouldn't settle clam if going construction. Rice/horse is decent 1N of the marked spot.

 

[jorissimo]

T64

Spoiler :

Decided to pause here because it's an important moment to decide what to do. Since the last update, I built/whipped another 2 workers, chopped a settler in Pyongyang and settled Pusan. I finished improving the rice 1 turn before settling it. I also cottaged 6 tiles, all of which are being worked. Two of my workers built a road to China once I got Writing and open borders. I have revealed a strong northeastern spot with double seafood, meaning we can get up to 6 cities peacefully, and then there is the other side of the western water to colonize. Meaning this position is not screaming construction at me. I'd rather expand and, depending on how much additional cities I can get, attack at Engineering or Mil Trad.

Note that Aesthetics is only a placeholder, my slider will be at 0 until I finish the library in Seoul. Once I grow to size 6 there, I'll start working the forested ph for a bit to get the library out faster. Wonsan will grow to size 4 on the next turn and will probably start on a settler, to be whipped as soon as possible. Pyongyang will also grow to size 4 and then whip another worker. Any overflow will be put into granaries and libraries, and I'm planning on whipping the latter eventually.

 

[jorissimo]

T77

Spoiler :

I have:
- Myst, BW, Archery, Writing
- 5 cities
- 15 pop
- 5 warriors
- 5 workers
- 1 granary (Pyongyang), 1 library (Seoul)
- 7 hamlets, 4 farms, 3 pastures, 3 cottages, 1 camp
- 62 bpt at 100%

I decided to plant that 5th city and delay attacking, probably until Engineering (maybe using a bulb?). I could settle the other side of the water, but will need better units because it's infested with barb archers that were pummeling China just a few turns ago. Brennus gave a helping hand spreading Buddhism to all of my cities. I switched, of course, given Qin doesn't have a religion. I also managed to trade for fur from Qin, so that my happy cap is now 7 (!) for non-capital cities. Brennus doesn't have copper but will get it soon (I can tell because he has a big stack of archers in Camulo). My tech rate is pretty good and as you can tell I've been waiting to get more clarity on what to research with all of that gold saved up. I accidentally put some beakers into Aesthetics, but maybe I should just go Alpha? Not sure where the others are in terms of tech but I feel like they can take a while to get Alpha. Namp'o will chop a boat soon. The only risk I can see is defense. China has land to settle so probably won't bother me. I don't know about Brennus though. I could still plant a gifted city on the desert hill 2 S of my warrior, but it might not be necessary with shared religion. He doesn't attack at pleased anyway. Seoul is growing to the happy cap and will then run 2 scientists. I'm cottaging the grassland hills for optimal sharing.

 

[jorissimo]

T100, end of opening practice 2.

Spoiler :

I have:
- 6 cities
- 28 pop
- BW, Sailing, CoL, Monarchy, Maths
- units, buildings, improvements: see last screenshot
- 136 bpt at 100%

I founded Cheju with a settler whipped in Pusan. Seoul also built a settler with the intention of settling on the other side (Nampo is building the galley, btw it already has the fish improved), but China is creeping up and there seems to be mostly jungle up there, so I'll have to do some exploration (I have a couple of chariots and an archer ready) before deciding if it's worth it. My workers have been doing the obvious: cottaging, chopping and pre-chopping. I got a bit of failgold from the Oracle.

Other than that, I beelined CS after Writing, because my capital has a lot to benefit from Bureau and other paths, like Aesthetics, weren't worth it because the others are teching slowly. I also figured it kept my options open and now an Engineering attack seems like the way to go. I will beeline this after finishing CS, which I'll get before 1 AD.

Unfortunately I forgot to run any scientists until 3 turns ago.

None of the AI have alpha yet. Qin will have Monarchy by now, I could see his research until just now. The diplo situation seems under control, Brennus cannot plot at pleased. Qin can, but I'm adopting his favorite civic soon. They have expanded rather fast lately, and I'm crammed now, but not all of their cities are the best quality (especially Brennus). Qin does seem to have a lot more room to expand to though, but an Engineering rush could equalize the situation. Brennus is the smaller target but his land is sub-par.

What was interesting about this game was opening agri-BW, farming the floodplains and chopping, chopping, chopping. I almost went AH followed by Pottery, but that doesn't make any sense in hindsight. Thanks for all input!

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

It's time for shadow opening 2. I rolled another Fractal with a random leader and took the first start I rolled. We got Wang Kon (Fin/Prot, starts with Mining and Mysticism):

Would someone please explain, I more detail, why the opening should be played in this way?

Spoiler :

My biggest concern is we might be on a map that needs early military action. Then we will actually need to work that tile?

 

[sampsa]

Not sure if it's strictly necessary, but it's 2 extra pt from the get-go, and least one extra cottage worked (probably more, as you are able to grow) and much faster expansion which wins . Maybe construction date is slightly weaker, but it can't be bad of course. Even without gold/FIN you can get a reasonable construction attack date - should never be a problem on immortal IMO.

Play and find out if this seems intuitively wrong.

 

[jorissimo]

Not sure if it's strictly necessary, but it's 2 extra pt from the get-go, and least one extra cottage worked (probably more, as you are able to grow) and much faster expansion which wins . Maybe construction date is slightly weaker, but it can't be bad of course. Even without gold/FIN you can get a reasonable construction attack date - should never be a problem on immortal IMO.

Play and find out if this seems intuitively wrong.

Yeah the tech rate was quite good early and this could have been a good construction date. I decided to attack later.

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

Not sure if it's strictly necessary, but it's 2 extra pt from the get-go, and least one extra cottage worked (probably more, as you are able to grow) and much faster expansion which wins . Maybe construction date is slightly weaker, but it can't be bad of course. Even without gold/FIN you can get a reasonable construction attack date - should never be a problem on immortal IMO.

Play and find out if this seems intuitively wrong.

I meant maps where the player is cornered in a small space and need to break out before catapults (axeman, swordsman, chariots, horse archers).

 

[sampsa]

Meaning less than 4 cities (or less than 3 even)?I think you can see from the starting screenshot already it's very unlikely that you are blocked. You are not on a blockable peninsula, but by a long river. On immortal the only such maps I've seen are ones where you start at the end of a long peninsula.

I also suggest you do some math. How much behind are you in by the time you reach BW?

 

[jorissimo]

I realized I misplayed the end of this opening a bit. Engineering didn't make any sense here. I attacked Qin around 600 AD with 20 units, half trebs, the other half elephants and maces. I finally subdued him after a 500-year war. Then went cannons through the Guilds path, bulbing Chemistry along the way. I had around 50 units when I capped Brennus, but on the other continent people were getting Assembly Line. Big lesson for me imho.

Long before attacking though, I managed to sneak in a city above China and took a really great barb city next to it, putting me at 8 cities, so conquest should not have been a huge priority. To add insult to injury, I found a big island full of gems that I'd have been able to secure if I had prioritized Astro, plus another big island closer which was more arid. Even without the islands, Astro would have made sense though. I considered replaying, but I'd have to go back to well before T100 because I already had CoL AND Medi, blocking the Astro bulb. Anyway, Iessons learned.