Tricky start (imo) I have struggled with - little help?

[Fippy]

Whipping granaries without a decent happy cap isn't good imo.
They are (shockingly ) low priority at this point.
What you really want is river cities on max. cottages soon,
they can (slow) build settlers & workers..supported by chops.

Libraries are a bit painful in those situations as well, at least without creative.

 

[sampsa]

I would not get a granary as you don't have the -cap to benefit. You want settlers/workers and some units. Grow as big as possible and work those FIN cottages. 4th city the one N of Uppsala.

 

[Build2Much]

Ok, this may sound dumb but this is obviously where I fail because by default I get my granaries and tech writing to get libraries to get a multiplier on my commerce, but I have no happiness so I whip myself into unhappiness!

It sounds like writing is the wrong thing to tech right now? Should I be prioritizing Monarchy and hope I can get there early enough to use it as trade bait so I can grow larger? Something else I'm missing?

Settle Fish south first and river 2nd sound reasonable? Or do I need to stop worrying about taking that south spot from Zara?

 

[Build2Much]

4th city the one N of Uppsala.

Missed that you addressed my last question already. I see it and I know why I have hesitated to settle in that direction, this is the best I have controlled the Barbs by far so it is possibly the first time it seems reasonable to go in that direction (even before my first axe has been built) to me.

 

[Fippy]

It's an interesting question..maybe the Oracle would be worth trying?
Usually those reli techs are wasteful early, but here they are actually okay even if the Oracle poofs.
Cos the need for Monarchy looks really high.

 

[Izuul]

In the short term, I would probably chop an axe in Uppsala to secure that area, and start on another settler in Nidaros for that NW river spot. Then you need some more workers to chop and build cottages. At least one more soon.

Monarchy does look essential here. That's not one I generally like to tech myself, but im not sure what other good options you have. The AI tend to prioritize Monarchy so there's a solid chance they could get it before you have a chance to get any trade value out of it. Another option would be to tech Alpha and try to flip that for Monarchy, but that could also result in you not getting Monarchy if things don't work out. Espionage pts on one target can help with these decisions sometimes. Just knowing what one AI is teching can be a great help.

Either way, you will want to self-tech to Priesthood as those cheap religious techs arent worth wasting trades for. That could open up the Oracle play as Fippy mentioned - in which case you could just take Monarchy with it. It may be getting a bit late for that though. How many turns to get to PH?

Is this continents? 50T in I would assume we arent going to meet anyone else.

 

[Build2Much]

@Izuul Map is Fractal (I think it is basically continents but never played it far enough)

Well, it got exciting for a while! I swear I think I did a good job on the Barbs (someone please try this on Deity just for "fun"). T86 update, appreciate the guidance so far, I think it is working out pretty well?

Spoiler starting at T51 and all is under control :

T51(continued) Changed around some tiles, slow building 6 turn Settler in Nidaros, decided to start writing
T52 can now see 3 archers W/NW, Warrior SE entered my territory
T53 Cover promoted warrior on the hill lost to injured archer up in NW. NOT GREAT
T55 Barb train has started from NW. Had 2 Warrior builds that turned into spearmen (not phenomenal planning on my part)
T56 Settler out in Nidaros. Moving to planned River City. Start Axe. First Cottage is done, start chopping for 2nd
T59 I have had to delay settling River City because of Barbs. Uppsala now has 2 warriors healing and a Spear, building an Axe. Axe from Nidaros is is heading to planned River City. Lost my scout on this turn (took a hill I shouldn't have to see what was coming) so W/NW is basically unguarded now.
T61 Settled Birka (River City). have still slightly injured spear in there, slightly injured Archer could attack across the river but he won't win, right? 3 river cottages are done and being worked. Zara settled a northern city on the East coast, so if I want that fish I need to go now.
T62 Spear won, I now have an axe there too. Barb archer came out of the SW, had to retreat a warrior. have an Axe headed that way. Starting to chop Settler in Nidaros.

I won't bore you with the rest, but it got a little hairy for a while. I have teched Writing>Mysticism>Meditation>Priesthood> and am working on Monarchy. The Oracle has still not gone...in fact the only 2 wonders to go so far are Stonehenge and TGW. I have some hammers in the Oracle, almost certainly fail gold but that will still come in handy. I did settle the fish city south and I have a Settler finished and need to pick my next spot. Here are the stats which I thought was funny - I had not fought a single Barb (1 lion) until this turn set. I do have a Woodsman 3 Spear and a Combat 3 Cover Axe from all my fun times!

And here is the situation in photo form. Yes, in my scrambling around against the Barbs I accidentally left enough room for them to settle a city

Spoiler the pictures :

Last photo above is a close up of the spots I *think* are possibly worth settling towards?

Spoiler you probably could have guessed :

Russia (Peter) is down that way and should be coming soon I assume. I can't take advantage of any of that happy stuff until Calendar, which is far away still, so I'm not inclined to try and get all the way over there. I could also go up the river further, to get the Silver, maybe with a Monument chop, but that city would not have much going for it without a food source (but would be another couple of cottages). I'm thinking the one that is on the coast next to the corn (4S1W of Nidaros) and can share a fish and eventually the pig is my best bet.

If you have read all that and want to give me your $.02 I'm taking a break for the rest of the afternoon!

 

[sampsa]

I don't think writing before Oracle techs was good. Are you seriously trying to get it? Your workers aren't chopping it. Why are you teching monarchy if that's your Oracle pick?

I think the barb city is good for you.

 

[Build2Much]

I don't think writing before Oracle techs was good. Are you seriously trying to get it? Your workers aren't chopping it. Why are you teching monarchy if that's your Oracle pick?

I think the barb city is good for you.

I'm teching Monarchy because I need it and it is about 10 turns away just hard teching it. If somehow I chop out the Oracle (which I really shouldn't be able to get anyway) there is always Metal Casting. This is my first turn of building Oracle, that is chop from finishing the settler, there are 4 or 5 forests I can chop, workers are all right there. Worst case scenario is that I chop a couple of forests, someone else gets Oracle and I get a turn off my Monarchy tech time.

I agree the Barb city isn't really a bad thing, I'm just annoyed because I had it blocked, moved out of the way for 2 turns and boom it popped up. As long as Zara doesn't get frisky because he's blocked in I can let that sit for a while.

What do you think - head S with my Settler or further up the river and get the silver in a slow growing city?

 

[Izuul]

I'm surprised the Oracle hasnt gone yet. Even for Immortal that is late.

At least the barbs picked a good spot for that city. You can probably take it from them with some axes.

The crab + silver spot isn't horrible to settle later. Even if its only works those two tiles it probably pays for itself, and you get +1 (or 2 with a forge) happiness in all of your cities.

 

[sampsa]

I'm teching Monarchy because I need it and it is about 10 turns away just hard teching it. If somehow I chop out the Oracle (which I really shouldn't be able to get anyway) there is always Metal Casting. This is my first turn of building Oracle, that is chop from finishing the settler, there are 4 or 5 forests I can chop, workers are all right there. Worst case scenario is that I chop a couple of forests, someone else gets Oracle and I get a turn off my Monarchy tech time.

Yeah so can you see why writing first was a big mistake? MC is horrible - you do close to nothing with it and it's not en route to anything interesting. CoL leads to good stuff and is better by a huge margin.

What do you think - head S with my Settler or further up the river and get the silver in a slow growing city?

The unmarked spot S of capital that gets corn+fish.

 

[Build2Much]

@sampsa In hindsight, definitely a huge mistake because it appears I would have won the Oracle race easily since it is still available. I had absolutely no expectation that was even possible however and I'm not even sure the last time I went for the Oracle. This is incredibly late, it just kinda was still there and I was heading that way anyway so I'm throwing hammers at it now.

Hopefully update tomorrow am!

 

[Fippy]

Oracle doesn't have to work when going for Monarchy.
Just prepare chops for one city (being ready when priesthood hits), science slider not on Monarchy so no beakers are wasted if you win Oracle,
and make that plan your priority..writing first really delays priesthood

Failgold never hurts early, and if you get let's say 100g it can be seen as Monarchy funding.
Oracle isn't that popular for the tech path needed..but if you need them it's an A+ try wonder.

 

[Build2Much]

@Fippy I exceeded the max for Oracle (on version 1)

There was some discussion about tech path choices and I am the first to admit this is a very weak part of my game, so after thinking about it for a while I decided to do this - I completed my version 1 path to Monarchy, then restarted before the Barb attack and went Mysticism>Monarchy, skipping Writing (version 2). The game changed dramatically (imo), but not what I expected.

When we last left off, I was at turn 86, had just started building the Oracle while teching Monarchy. I had a total population of 19, 5 cities (6th city settler about to move), 3 Barracks, 2 Libraries, 1 Granary, 5 Cottages, 5 Hamlets, 1 Village. I had just finished killing 22 Barbs.

Spoiler version 1 :

T90 I chopped like my life depended on it and got to 129 Hammers in the Oracle, but just got the message that someone else has completed it. Fail gold it is.
T94 Monarchy finishes, start AH. I am waiting 2 turns to go to HR so I get a settler out and my workers can start improving Pigs. I meet Wang Kon via boat. He and Peter have Alphabet but I don't have anything to trade them other than cheap religious techs.

When that settler settles I will be up to 7 cities.

Now the "reboot" - started again on Turn 51 and skipped Writing this time. I think my Kingdom is better for it, but it is different.

Spoiler version 2 :

I won't go through all the gory details, but the huge difference to start was that I did not lose my scout and I pushed hard to keep settling cities. I lost my Cover Warrior on the hill again at the start and 1 other Warrior. Not losing that scout helped me control the Barb rush - I went from killing 22 total barbs to only 14 and no barb cities in my land. I also don't have a woodsman 3 unit (yet, close on one guy).

T73 Oracle finishes (WTH?) 17 turns earlier than the other game, starting from the same spot. I have everything completely under control so I will just keep settling up the river.
T94 Monarchy finishes (WTH?). I still need to get Writing. But honestly I think I'm in a better spot.

I forget what turn it was but I have met Wang Kon in this game as well.

The new (and improved?) T94 Viking Empire has a total population of 22, 8 cities, 4 Barracks, 0 Libraries (no Writing yet), 3 Granary, 2 Monument (that's new), 10 Cottages, 9 Hamlets, 3 Villages and 1 Silver Mine.

So, if you are following that, I am further "behind" in tech than I was, but I have more happiness and I have a tradeable tech (Monarchy) that was not tradeable in the previous game. WK will give me Iron Working and Masonry and I might take both...or I could risk a turn of tech and try to get Writing, Sailing, or AH instead of Masonry.

I'm going to play from here - what is my tech path?

Thanks!

 

[Build2Much]

@sampsa is this kinda what you are talking about when you say "Sim City"? I can just feel that my tech is going to explode if I play this correctly (me playing it correctly is the questionable part) and I don't always take advantage of the Financial leaders like I should.

 

[Fippy]

Maybe IW + writing from Wang, after you put some beakers into writing?
Certainly better to get something for Monarchy quickly, or Wang might trade for it with Zara.

You have several options here after that..
construction usually makes sense on Immortal (and sometimes deity), if you want to roleplay as Ragnar and start fighting

Aesthetics and prolly towards music for great trade options (and a golden age artist).
Depends on what you are more curious about trying.

 

[sampsa]

@sampsa is this kinda what you are talking about when you say "Sim City"?

Yes, I mostly mean focusing on your empire buildup and letting the AI do their thing (which most of the time is nonsense anyway). Of course you should care about resource and tech trades, but not much else.

I don't know how your position looks like for you, but I think it's very good and easy to play. Grow and work more cottages and you will run away with the game.

 

[Fippy]

Oh i just noticed that you need AH too.
Better to get that before writing now (20% speed-up and you can certainly use pigs etc now).

Wang won't give AH + IW just yet? If not you prolly just need ~30 beakers into AH for a trade.
Or if you decide on construction as next big goal, just taking masonry also works.

 

[Build2Much]

I don't think anyone needs too see a blow by blow at this point, game is well in hand thanks to the much better start, although I probably could have been a little quicker. I Vassaled Russia in 1270AD, Now it is 1320AD, I have 21 Cities and my last Russian city is about to come out of revolt next turn - I will be starting a MoM golden age (thanks Moscow!) and should actually be able to chain 2 together. Also got the Mids, Hanging Gardens and Chicken Pizza in Moscow (thanks again!) so I can go Rep, Caste, and Pacifism to try and maximize the Golden Age returns. Plenty of now. There is another city spot that Peter left open in Russia that I plan to settle and at least 1 more in the NW of my territory, possibly 2 (especially if there is Oil there).

I think I need to really prioritize getting to State Property ASAP. Zara got stuck with only 6 cities in the corner but is ahead of me on tech so he's not a threat but I'd rather not attack for no reason - wait until I have at least Planes (assuming he doesn't Peace Out), which I will need to go across the water. I assume I have oil somewhere, kinda important.

Moscow will become my HE city I think, high production, river for watermills, already has 1 settled General, I have another I got at the end of the war but haven't settled yet.

Spoiler some photos :

Questions for the experts since I might still have some of your attention and I am really learning from this:

1. Anything I wrote not make any sense? Assuming I go State Property, in my original land up the river, with a financial leader and mature towns, should I be leaving them alone and watermill in the Russian Territory? One annoying thing is that he settled poorly imo, Moscow (and maybe a weak Novogord) is the only potential Levee down there, but still should be tons of production.

2. Can someone explain how the Cultural pressure after war works or point me in a direction to read about it? I expected Moscow to need units in there and I will keep an eye on it, but it has a zero % chance of Revolt with one Longbow.

3. Is Moscow too good of a city to put the HE in? I would consider using a weaker city since I can probably 2 turn tanks in Moscow as it is once it has watermills and a levee.

If you are still reading, thanks!

 

[a pen-dragon]

1. Anything I wrote not make any sense? Assuming I go State Property, in my original land up the river, with a financial leader and mature towns, should I be leaving them alone and watermill in the Russian Territory? One annoying thing is that he settled poorly imo, Moscow (and maybe a weak Novogord) is the only potential Levee down there, but still should be tons of production.

Leave the towns in cities with universities. Else replace them with mostly workshops, but replace other improvements first. IMHO you have too few to justify universal suffrage + free speech and keeping all of them. really workshops are stronger than watermills, except if you really need the food (to work more workshops).

2. Can someone explain how the Cultural pressure after war works or point me in a direction to read about it? I expected Moscow to need units in there and I will keep an eye on it, but it has a zero % chance of Revolt with one Longbow.

For a revolt to occur two things must be true: someone other than the owner must have more culture than the owner and it must be in the current culture of that other party. In your case there can be no revolt, because Moscow is not in Russian culture. St. Petersburg would need to expand borders twice for this to change.

3. Is Moscow too good of a city to put the HE in? I would consider using a weaker city since I can probably 2 turn tanks in Moscow as it is once it has watermills and a levee.

If you do not have another city to put it in, this is a good candidate. As long as you do not end up having too much production (more than one-turning units) nothing is wasted. Add future military instructors and west point for more xp.