Trying to getting ropes in VP.

[MrDiap]

Hello,

After playing vanilla Civ5 I found video on YT about the VP modpack (thanks Marb!) and decided to try it.
And I love it!

I kicked a new standard game on prince difficulty and get declared by Arabia because forward settling and buying tiles aggressively. We are trading units back and forth however I notice that my understanding of combat calculation seems outdated. Here is screenshot.

Could someone give me any pointers why I'm getting less total damage even though my base strengrh and bonuses seems higher than AI's?

Also I noticed that AI uses catapults alot to snipe my swordsman. Is catapult a new "bowman" meta?

 

[Recursive]

Your effective combat strengths (25.08 vs. 24) are very similar, you probably just got a roll of bad luck.

Also, welcome to the VP community!

 

[andersw]

When asking its good if you also specify map, gamespeed and what policy tree you went for.
Faster gamespeed is considered more difficult (from what I read others say) and authority/progress seems easier than tradition.

It is hard to say what is wrong and not but I'll try:
a. You don't want to trade units, you want the AI to loose units while you gain exp (and more if authority).
You normally don't want to end your turn in range of their catapults, well you already noticed they hurt, sometimes if there are no other enemy units it is ok but can still be risky.
You want the AI to walk into your siege line and then move forward in a controlled manner, sometimes that means retreating.
b. In case of your mouseover you can clearly see they get a great general bonus from the general 2nw, they also get a +30%, not sure from where, probably they promotions.
c. War vs AI is a lot more tricky in VP so I feel with you, but then again there are worse things than getting declared by early arabs.
edit: d. Your supply is over max, that is not good, mouse over to see effects (16/15) and you loose 2% combat from unhappy.

In you picture having the crossbowmen behind swordsmen with skirmisher on one side would probably be a lot better.

 

[tu_79]

I thought combat tooltip was fixed.

Catapults, siege units in general, are good for cities, and better than archers against ships. They also have an useful promotion against large numbers and fortified units, so they can be used other than in cities.

Siege units are still very weak, so you should use some archers for doubling the front in exposed locations. They rarely stands two hits, but at least archers are not insta-killed like catapults.

 

[Owlbebach]

Could someone give me any pointers why I'm getting less total damage even though my base strengrh and bonuses seems higher than AI's?

Your effective combat strengths (25.08 vs. 24) are very similar, you probably just got a roll of bad luck.

Your unit is more damaged than his. Damaged units become weaker (i believe that was the same in Vanilla)

 

[chicorbeef]

Welcome! It's always nice to have new people playing VP!

VP changes a lot but it is a lot of fun when you know what you're doing. I tried playing Vanilla again to see what it was like but the total lack of balance meant I didn't even make it past the pantheon screen.

There is nothing wrong with that combat screen, your unit is just more wounded so that's why you're going to deal a little bit less damage. That's the same as in Vanilla.

The AI using Catapults-Catapults are not really the new meta, but they are available earlier than normal ranged units so the AI tends to use a few.

I'll quote myself over here for tips on AI aggression if you want some.

-Give gifts (+20 GPT early on does wonders. Thanks @John.B.C !) You get a +35 trade modifier which would override the -25 from Territorial Disputes early on..
-Trade. This reinforces the same trade modifier that gifts do. If you're ahead, AIs will be less likely to attack because they can get science/culture from you.
-Spread Religion if you can. This gives a hefty positive modifier.
-Avoid actively pissing off powerful civs in the World Congress. Vote for proposals that are kind of irrelevant sometimes (the Natural Wonder proposal).
-Get to the middle of the pack, scientifically and culturally. If you're behind the pack, they'll attack you because they see you as weak, and if you're greatly ahead, they'll also attack (but this isn't as bad because you should be in the lead)
-Make sure that other civs are closer to your neighbours than you are. Sometimes settling a city 1 or 2 tiles back can make a fairly big difference.
-Militarily, you don't need to be on top. However, keep these things in mind:
-The AI considers your army relative to your empire size, so bigger empires need more military
-The AI considers your army to be a bit more powerful than it actually is. On Deity the AI considers your army twice as powerful as it actually is, on King it would be a little less (perhaps @Gazebo could please shed some light on the AI perception of your army across difficulties) but still significant. Look at your neighbours size compared to yours and the difficulty you're playing and calculate a ratio where your perceived army is roughly the same)
-Finally, don't be so scared of war when it happens. Even if it's purely defensive, you will earn Generals, promote your troops, and force the AI to lose Production and Gold in lost units fighting you and you might just be able to snipe a city or pillage the AI to set it back. Find a defensive position, maybe plant a Citadel, be very careful not to lose units, and you should be able to beat the AI back without letting them pour in. City-State allies and Defensive Pacts (or just joint wars) can help too.
-The alternative is to play aggressive. If you play Authority you'll get a ton of yields from war (Progress and Tradition can profit off war too!). Make a large army early on, promote it to Level 5+, and beat the AI at its own game.

Edit: I'll also try to give some tips for this game in particular.
You're playing America, a civ with solid Production bonuses, so you probably should have tried to get yourself a Religion (rushing Stonehenge is something I like to do as America). Your culture seems kind of low, I think that is the area that you need to focus on in particular (Inspiration could have helped had you got a religion if that seems like something you'll be struggling on). Sun God seems like it could have been a good choice here so I would have rushed Granaries in all cities.

Libraries aren't as good as they used to be so you should probably hold off on them until you've gotten other core infrastructure (I've listed some below). You've still got one horse, I say build another Horseman and use the two Horsemen together to snipe the Catapult when you can. Maybe trade for more horses if you can.

I also think you've overextended your line, you should pull back your troops to the center of that screenshot. New York is safe, you built Walls in it anyway (don't build Walls too early. I did that once and it totally screwed my game over in a way I've never experienced before.)

I don't know what policy tree you went but focus on its strengths (eg. Great People if Tradition, Production/Science if Progress). I'm guessing it's not Authority since you don't have the 'Heal on Kill' promotion from the Authority policy tree. Rushing one of the civs, Authority or not, seems like the best option here.

If you were playing Tradition (looks like it) I'd say best would be to go for some wonders (rushing Hanging Gardens seems doable and powerful for a Prince game). Make a Barracks in your Capital and make it the military center, let your poor secondary cities focus on getting Monuments first (Granaries first if you truly did go Sun God) and then other valuable infrastructure (like Shrines, Councils, Wells/Water Mills, Markets, Barracks/Forge + Arena combo, etc.)

Go for Splendor (the +2 culture from Monuments, Baths, etc. and the free Writer slot) before the other policy. Make sure to work both the Writer and Artist slot (ignore the other ones for now if you want until you finish Tradition...like work the Engineer only when building settlers and only if you can still grow at a good pace), Culture is really important.

Don't get discouraged because this is your first VP game so things are probably going to be quite difficult when you start out. Happiness, supply limit, war weariness, vassals, monopolies (did you settle enough to get yours?) are all new things that are best learned through experience.

Don't worry about Happiness too much in the early game (at this stage it's only -2% to yields), just try to settle all your cities before dipping into -10 (because then you can't settle until you restore your happiness). Settle quickly and define your land.

Try to have a couple of Medics (at least one of your comp bows should go Accuracy I-Medic I-II).

Hope that helps!

 

[MrDiap]

Thanks a lot to all who replied!

It is large map, standard speed, prince difficulty.

I went for tradition 4/5 and AI has 6 authority (what tooltip says).

Siege units are still very weak, so you should use some archers for doubling the front in exposed locations. They rarely stands two hits, but at least archers are not insta-killed like catapults.

Yeah, I can kill catapult using my horsemen or swordsman, but then my mele end turn in their territory. Archers no luck . See Pic1.

Your unit is more damaged than his. Damaged units become weaker (i believe that was the same in Vanilla)

I tried to damage his unit, so now we are approx at same level and it is a stalemate. See Pic2.

What is efficient counter to horsemen before I get to pikemen? Swordsman are good, but spearmen seems useless now.

Don't get me wrong I'm totally not complaining, just trying to understand how combat works now. And yeah AI is now playing chess, it is so refreshing. Did I say I love it!
I have no issues with AI smart moves. Just now trying to find best counters to his units and how efficient bonus application is.

Going to be digging for posts what exactly changed in combat math as well.

Pic1. I need like 5 turns to kill his catapult with a bowman.

Pic2. Spearmen VS damaged horseman.

EDIT: I checked authority tree policies description and it doesn't say any extra combat bonuses except last one. Am I missing something?

Sneaky EDIT2: I'm totally not discouraged but the opposite, excited to learn something new in the game I play as long as I remember myself.

 

[chicorbeef]

Killing a Catapult with a Comp Bow is probably not the best choice because Catapults have a high RCS and start with Cover I. The best choice here I think would be to pull back all your troops (make sure your GG doesn't get sniped of course) and then focus fire the wounded Horseman and then snipe the Catapult with your own Horseman (flank it too) when it's far away enough from their borders.

EDIT: I checked authority tree policies description and it doesn't say any extra combat bonuses except last one. Am I missing something?

The "combat bonus" is the +15 HP healed on kill that Dominance gives. That's a promotion that shows up in the tooltip.

The combat math fundamentally works the same as far as I know, just bear things in mind like the base flanking bonus being 15% now, Catapults and other Siege starting with Cover I, the difference between a Drill/Shock unit on the front line, Accuracy/Barrage promotions, the Authority +10%, etc. mean there are a lot of things to consider.

 

[Recursive]

Your unit is more damaged than his. Damaged units become weaker (i believe that was the same in Vanilla)

Oh, right haha. I completely forgot to check unit health. Silly me.

It's probably that.

 

[tu_79]

Yeah, I can kill catapult using my horsemen or swordsman, but then my mele end turn in their territory. Archers no luck . See Pic1.


I tried to damage his unit, so now we are approx at same level and it is a stalemate. See Pic2.

What is efficient counter to horsemen before I get to pikemen? Swordsman are good, but spearmen seems useless now.
.

You're right, not a smart move for you to lose a horseman for killing one AI catapult, but it works for the AI, so watch this out.

As for a counter against horsemen before spearsmen, there aren't many options. You only have warriors, maybe archers, maybe your own mounted units. Assuming you just have warriors, you have to make use of the terrain. See, melee units gets extra defense in rough terrain. +10% for hills, +25% for trees. And +20% if the enemy has to cross a river. You also can use flanking, as long as you bring more adjacent units to the combat, you have the upper hand. Melee can also fortify, unlike mounted.

So, safest way to handle enemy horsemen is position your warriors in good defensive spots and fortify. If you get archers before spearsmen, use them behind a solid wall of warriors. Promote at least one archer to Medic, your pathfinder can be used as Medic too, but chances are that he's away.
Also, you can try preemptive attacks. If you see that your neighbors can connect horses, send some warriors to capture their workers, to prevent horses from being connected, or if it is too late, try to pillage their horses. Without connected horses, their horsemen cannot heal.

Last thing. If you start next to an early warmonger, consider picking authority just to survive. Authority is very strong early game and decays later, but you'll need to be very strong early to make it through.

edit.
Sorry, I did not read it correctly. What Bridger says.

 

[Bridger]

Spearmen are the counter to horsemen. You don't need pikemen to counter horsemen. Spearmen have 11 CS. Horsemen have 15. Spearmen have +50% bonus against horse, so they are at around 16.5 vs. the 15 for horsemen. So you have a slight edge in combat, but the real edge is that they get built MUCH faster. IIRC, it's something like 60% of the time it takes to build a horseman. So you can usually have 3 spearmen for each 2 horsemen the enemy fields in the same time period.