TSG 239 After Actions Thread

[Nizef]

In this thread you can post the results of your game. Please state your victory/loss date (preferably in the post title) and describe your path to glory in this post! Players are encouraged to provide feedback on the game.

- Did you play peacefully or warlike? Did you use your UU?
- What technologies did you prioritize?
- What Social Policies did you choose and in what order? Which Ideology did you choose?
- How many cities did you have in the end and where did you settle them?

 

[armcie]

Considering who our neighbour was, I had a very peaceful game. There was one moment when Shaka was lined u0 on the border, but I paid him to attack France (who was down to one city because of the Ottomans), and they remained at war for most of the game. Regular military gifts from city states kept me strong enough that he didn't look my way again.

Missed out on desert folklore, but I beelined currency, and went for Monument t the Gods for a boost on Petra, which I got. I'd have gone for the culture + faith from incense, if I'd remembered it existed.

This all left me in a good position to turtle. Got all the wonders I wanted (except Notre Dame) and everyone gave me cheap open borders once I was pumping out tourism.

Late game, two Zulu cities flipped to me. One a city state I liberated, and one I sold to Morocco, which gave me easy access for my final Musician to finish the game on T298.

Fun game!

 

[zxcvbob]

I quit on turn 230. I'm not losing but I'm not going to win and it's just not a fun one for me. I might try again, I don't know. Shaka declared war early and we've been at war the entire game. I have a stronger military than he does (I have the strongest in the game) but it doesn't matter; he builds a replacement Impi every turn in each of his core cities and every couple of turns in his border cities, and he does not care how many of them die because they are so cheap. It takes me 3 or 4 turns to build a musketman, 2 or 3 for a pike or crossbow. (I'm building units in all of my cities too) Every once in a while a swarm of Impi burst out of the shadows and kill one of my highly-promoted crossbows or cavalry, and they even cheat when they do that (this is nothing new, when the AI attacks with Impi each one does the spear toss first before any do a melee attack, so each one gets a little XP and none take any damage at all, a human player can't do that)

I've captured 2 of his border cities (razed one and kept one just as a place to heal my units.) The first good city I captured has changed hands every turn for about 4 turns, so he's gaining on me through attrition just from that as we each lose a melee unit every time the city turns over. It's down to one pop, so if I could ever hold it for one turn I could annex it and buy walls and a castle. The 500+ gold from capturing it the first time was nice. In another 100 to 150 turns I will win the war with Shaka but someone else will have won the game by then.

Edit: I've actually had 2 wars with Shaka; the first was so early I don't think there was any possibility of bribing him to attack France or Egypt first; he probably hadn't met them yet. After I repelled his attack and started pushing back he offered me all his luxuries and resources for peace. If I had rejected his offer, I don't think I was strong enough at that point to finish him off. Then when he built his army back up and the peace treaty expired, he declared war again and we've been fighting ever since and will until one of us is dead. Perhaps during that peace treaty I could have bribed him to attack someone else, I don't know. That was my only hope of winning this one. If I start over, I will try that.

 

[Rhodro]

Just won tourism victory at turn 132.
I continued from the initial actions post. I went for civil service for open borders tech. And just spammed some more cities for more faith buildings.

Bulawayo was a bugged city. My puppet wasn't building anything even though the citizens stopped revolting. Annexing it I still couldn't build anything. So I sold it to the ottomans for next to nothing, but it did enable me to run trade routes to ottomans and zulu, they both were the top culture pumpers. I had open borders and shared religion with zulu. Ottomans kept denying open borders. I also tried bribing ottomans and zulu to attack eachother every turn but neither of them wanted to.
Marocco was the 3rd culture pumper but he fell 1 turn later then the others, didn't even need trade route with him.


For fun I used my great engineer that spawned 1 turn before representation free golden age on the chichen itza.

Spoiler :

Spoiler :

 

[Rhodro]

I quit on turn 230. I'm not losing but I'm not going to win and it's just not a fun one for me. I might try again, I don't know. Shaka declared war early and we've been at war the entire game. I have a stronger military than he does (I have the strongest in the game) but it doesn't matter; he builds a replacement Impi every turn in each of his core cities and every couple of turns in his border cities, and he does not care how many of them die because they are so cheap. It takes me 3 or 4 turns to build a musketman, 2 or 3 for a pike or crossbow. (I'm building units in all of my cities too) Every once in a while a swarm of Impi burst out of the shadows and kill one of my highly-promoted crossbows or cavalry, and they even cheat when they do that (this is nothing new, when the AI attacks with Impi each one does the spear toss first before any do a melee attack, so each one gets a little XP and none take any damage at all, a human player can't do that)

I've captured 2 of his border cities (razed one and kept one just as a place to heal my units.) The first good city I captured has changed hands every turn for about 4 turns, so he's gaining on me through attrition just from that as we each lose a melee unit every time the city turns over. It's down to one pop, so if I could ever hold it for one turn I could annex it and buy walls and a castle. The 500+ gold from capturing it the first time was nice. In another 100 to 150 turns I will win the war with Shaka but someone else will have won the game by then.

Edit: I've actually had 2 wars with Shaka; the first was so early I don't think there was any possibility of bribing him to attack France or Egypt first; he probably hadn't met them yet. After I repelled his attack and started pushing back he offered me all his luxuries and resources for peace. If I had rejected his offer, I don't think I was strong enough at that point to finish him off. Then when he built his army back up and the peace treaty expired, he declared war again and we've been fighting ever since and will until one of us is dead. Perhaps during that peace treaty I could have bribed him to attack someone else, I don't know. That was my only hope of winning this one. If I start over, I will try that.

Once Shaka gets going he's a real PITA. I've noticed that dude doesn't build much buildings at all just units spam. (when I pupetted one of his cities it didnt have any buildings).
I bullied him very early between those hills around Nongoma and Nobamba with a bunch of normal archers and 1 warrior. He lost 2 spearmen an archer and a warrior. I then shot his nongoma city down to 0 hp. This prompted him to give me bulawayo for peace. This set him back hard. He did get impi's quite a few turns before I won, but he didn't dare to attack me. Maybe because Bulawayo was now a buffer between him and me.
So I think it's key to either set him up against someone else or bully him from very early on. In this game it's harder to set him up against other AI because France is quite far away. So I think bully him is the way to go.

 

[zxcvbob]

I played it again. Didn't really play *that* much different than last time, but early I bribed Napoleon to declare war on Shaka. (it was more expensive than it should have been) He took my incense and horses and gold and whatever else it was and then didn't do anything. Fine, at least now they hate each other. A little later, I bribe Shaka to attack Napoleon (that one was cheap) He actually captured a French border city, but after about 10 or 12 turns they made peace. Then they jointly declared war on me. Ten turn later, after not doing anything, Napoleon was done and offered me some luxes and a little gold for peace and I accepted. I stayed at war with Shaka for at least 200 turns until he was eliminated. I gave my horse units extra sight for their second promotion and tried to keep them on hills; that helped a little with swarms of Impi jumping out of the shadows and killing my crossbows but that still happened some. I settled 5 cities this time instead of 4, I got a little better religion (cathedrals instead of pagodas, extra food instead of extra hammers), and I managed to build Petra and Machu Picchu and Globe Theater. I think I got all the modern era and later wonders except Broadway.

Culture victory on turn 418. I was swimming 2 musicians over to Morocco and my open borders ended the turn before they got there, and Ahmad would not give me open borders again at any price. I did not want to wait 18 more turns so I declared war and played my concerts aboard a destroyer and a missile cruiser for the win.

Babylon almost got a diplomatic victory. I had to bribe a couple of CSs right before the first world leader vote to keep him from getting the 38 or 40 votes, then Gunboat Diplomacy started working and I took enough CS votes to where it was safe, but not enough to overturn the Order world ideology (that's why my happiness is not higher)



I was about to declare war on Egypt just to see how much gold I could get by capturing Thebes with an embarked landsknecht Also it had Statue of Liberty, which is one of my favorite wonders. Edit to add: I got 2083 gold for sacking Thebes with a landsknecht.

 

[fiddlesticks]

@Rhodro how did you manage 60 tourism per turn across your 15 cities?

I've never tried cathedrals, but I've always assumed that the great work of art slot is empty when you faith purchase them. Is that wrong?

 

[fiddlesticks]

After flubbing sacred sites, I replayed with a classic culture strategy (great works and wonders). Turn 198 (199), culture victory.

 

[sebtanic]

Turn 296 Culture win.

I settled in place. My initial strategy was Sacred Sites. So many beautiful sites for planting cities!

The overall plan was to get sacred sites, then build as many cities as I can without neglecting development. Try to get most of the Renaissance wonders, then tech to Hotels and see if that's enough to win.

When I met Zulu, I decided to conquer their capital, in order to cripple them before they get to Impis. Also, I wanted to take Umgundgundlovu, which they had put in a place that I'd actually wanted to settle. It rarely happens that the AI picks a city spot I like.

I went full Piety, then left Liberty. Which was probably a mistake. I never built any settlers after Collective Rule, happiness was maxed out. I built 5 cities of my own (see the screenshot below for placements), and took two from the Zulus.

Once I finally met everyone, it was clear I couldn't win peacefully and I decided I'd have to take out Morocco, who was by far the culture leader. This proved harder than I thought.

Notes from the game:
t36 - Goddess of Festivals (+1 culture and faith from Incense). Desert Folklore was gone already
t64 - Piety to Reformation (but I didn't have a religion yet)
t75 - Religion: Pagodas, Initiation Rites, Sacred Sites
t92 - Enhanced: Reliquary (+50 Faith/GP), Cathedrals

t110 - conquered Ulundi (Zulu capital). I left the Zulus with one city. Didn't want to wipe them out in order to maintain good relations with other civs to be able to get Open Borders
t??? - NC (didn't take note of the exact turn)
t138 - Oracle (took Collective Rule)

Built the Artist's guild first, because with all my cathedrals I had so many spots for great works of art and just one for works of writing

t213 - DOWed Morocco. I had sent a host of crossbows and Mandekalus over there, plus two longbows that I got from a city state. They razed one city, then marched on the capital but couldn't take it. My longbows couln't get a shot at them from any direction from a distance of 3 tiles, there were too many hills in the way. And Morocco had galleases in and near his capital that took out any of my land units coming close.

t215 - Pisa (took GE)
t216 - Uffizi (with GE)
t224 - Globe Theatre

t230 - Peace deal with Morocco. He offered me Casablanca, which I razed. Happiness went to -18 after taking it.

I decided to tech to Frigates and hoped to take his capital with that. Ahmed had tons of wonders there, including most defensive ones such as Red Fort, Alhambra, Brandenburg. Also he now had Berber Cavalry which gets huge bonuses in desert and homeland.

t240 - Peace deal expired, and once my Frigates got there I DOWed again. My land army was camping somewhere in the no man's land, though I had allied the Faith city state next to Morocco which helped a bit.
t262 - took Marrakech, with about 7 Frigates.

I manged to lure the defending crossbowman out of the city with a worker, and killed it. Also, I had killed his Galleases before laying siege to Marrakech so now there wasn't much defense left except some Berbers that picked at my army from the south and managed to kill some of my Crossbows. But they were outdated by now anyways. By now I now had some Musketmen and a Cannon helping out.

My Frigates did just 5-10 damage per shot on the Moroccan capital, but after 4 turns, that was enough. I sent the damaged Frigates to heal in Ottoman's territory, they had placed a city on the island NW of Morocco and we had open borders.

Once I took Marrakech, Morroco now had 3 cities left.

t271 - Radio. Took Freedom and chose Healthcare, Avantgarde, Universal Suffrage because I needed the happiness. It went from -1 after taking Marrakech, to +21.
t283 - Media culture (extra Tourism from Broadcast towers)
t289 - Morocco eliminated

I razed one of Morocco's other cities, then annexed the other two. Turns out my happiness was now high enough I didn't need to raze the others.

Tech was at Refrigeration, and I bought hotels in my capital and the major tourist hubs.

I had 10000 faith by now, enough to buy 4 GMs. I only needed 3 of them to win. Bought the 4th one regardless just in case, but it wasn't needed. After I bought it another natural GM popped in my capital, which I used to make another great work of music as I didn't need him either.

After Morocco was out, France, Ethiopia, and Babylon were about equal in culture. I had open borders and trade routes with all. Sent one GM to Ethiopia, 2 to Babylon, which pushed me over the finish line in turn 296.

t296 - win

 

[Rhodro]

@Rhodro how did you manage 60 tourism per turn across your 15 cities?

I've never tried cathedrals, but I've always assumed that the great work of art slot is empty when you faith purchase them. Is that wrong?

Each purchased faith building is 2 tourism, so pagoda + mosque is 4 tourism per city. 15 cities cities times 4 faith = 60 tourism.
The great work slot of cathedrals is empty when you buy the buildings.
I don't rate that building very high because it's same price as pagoda and mosque, and filling the art slots is difficult. If you have some cities with museums and/or culture wonders you have plenty of slots, that actually can have theming bonus.

Edit: Oh and the monestary is actually quite a bit cheaper then the other buildings. But it has less base yield and no happiness. You could opt for that building instead in this game to be honest.

 

[Rhodro]

I did another run. To see if desert folklore is really necessary to win fast, since from the opening actions thread it looks like I was the only one lucky enough to get it.
The differences: this time I went with One with Nature pantheon and pagoda + monestary instead of mosque. I did not get any faith ruin.
I started liberty, 2 scouts into 1 settler for sri pada. Then i mixed monument, archers and settlers. This game was even more fun.
I won at turn 130, by conquering egypt capital, peace treaty one of his cities and then getting open borders with him + a trade route.
I bullied shaka early on with a warrior ruin upgraded to spearman and an archer. He gave me umgungundlovu in a peace deal, which was a nice early city. When I declared war again to farm him, I got a lucky quest finish and gave some money to Bratislava. We became allied and with my units pummeling down shaka's cities, bratislava captured two cities from shaka with his spearman + catapult, burned one down and kept Ulundi, wiping shaka out. Take that

 

[zxcvbob]

I did another run. To see if desert folklore is really necessary to win fast, since from the opening actions thread it looks like I was the only one lucky enough to get it.
The differences: this time I went with One with Nature pantheon and pagoda + monestary instead of mosque. I did not get any faith ruin.
I started liberty, 2 scouts into 1 settler for sri pada. Then i mixed monument, archers and settlers. This game was even more fun.
I won at turn 130, by conquering egypt capital, peace treaty one of his cities and then getting open borders with him + a trade route.
I bullied shaka early on with a warrior ruin upgraded to spearman and an archer. He gave me umgungundlovu in a peace deal, which was a nice early city. When I declared war again to farm him, I got a lucky quest finish and gave some money to Bratislava. We became allied and with my units pummeling down shaka's cities, bratislava captured two cities from shaka with his spearman + catapult, burned one down and kept Ulundi, wiping shaka out. Take that

I just tried that and the game was going well but someone beat me to Reformation and took SS. I did Liberty to the free settler (Collective Rule?) and then switched to Piety. I got two +20 culture ruins, one right away, so I got to the reformation pretty fast. BTW, I did not wait for the free settler, I built one very early. Did you open Liberty and immediately switch to Piety? Or take the +1 hammer or the free worker and then switch? First builds in the expos was generally monument, then an archer if the city was on a hill or walls if it wasn't. After that they built shrines, mud pyramids, and settlers. Perhaps it's inevitable that Morocco or Ethiopia will beat you to the reformation and you just have to hope they take Jesuit Education, TGG, or Evangelism.

 

[Rhodro]

Perhaps it's inevitable that Morocco or Ethiopia will beat you to the reformation and you just have to hope they take Jesuit Education, TGG, or Evangelism.

In my first game someone got reformation before me, but in the 2nd game I was the first one. So it's not inevitable.

Did you open Liberty and immediately switch to Piety? Or take the +1 hammer or the free worker and then switch?

1. Liberty opener
2. republic +1 hammer
3. Collective rule free settler
4. piety opener
5. organized religion faith per shrine
6. religious tolerance
7. reformation
8. mandate of heaven 20% discount
9. citizenship worker

In my first game I even had tradition opener before this list, but you don't need it this game.

First builds in the expos was generally monument, then an archer if the city was on a hill or walls if it wasn't. After that they built shrines, mud pyramids, and settlers.

Sacred Sites is a really fragile strategy, everything needs to be working towards the 2 goals: faith (to spam faith buildings) and culture (to get reformation asap). Luckily buying faith buildings also give culture. If it doesn't help for this goal, you're not gonna snowball and indeed the AI might beat you to sacred sites. If you have both pagoda's and monastary, buy the monastaries first everywhere. They are much cheaper, making the snowball bigger faster. Lock the cities to not grow until later, when they have pagoda they can grow to 2 and with colloseum to 4. My sri pada city grows to 3 at the start, because of the 2 food from sri pada, then i Lock it, because a 3 pop city is still relatively easy to convert with religious pressure. all the other cities stay 1 pop for a long time, so that religious pressure converts them faster.
Happiness is a tiny bit easier to deal with if you settle cities on top of luxes. You can also send workers together with settler to immediately connect new luxes. In my 2nd game I actually used all the money from my founder belief (gold per converted city) into a few workers and more settlers. These early workers help a lot to connect luxes fast so you can keep spamming cities.

My first 2 expo's at the natural wonders build: monument -> shrine. Expo's after that do shrine -> monument, because it's more efficient after you have piety opener. Even later when you have mud pyramids it becomes shrine -> mud pyramid -> monument.
After that colloseum and circus are important so that you can at least grow a tiny bit. Then I prioritize market and library about the same. Library is not amazing when a city is 4 pop but at least its something. Most cities will not need granaery for this strategy. I only made a few later so I could set up food traderoute to capital. But this was pretty late, my first 2 trade routes went to city states to complete a quest.
My archers came from my capital mostly that build them in between settlers.

My capital build order

1. scout
2. scout
3. something till 3 pop, monument? Don't prio shrine here because you're gonna get 2 cities with faith natural wonders soon.
4. 1 settler at pop 3 (start immediatly at pop 3. If pop 3 takes too long because not lucky with ruins, make it at 2 pop. Settling sri pada fast is super important, because we need to get faith rolling in ASAP for pantheon. Creating settler at 2 pop is better then building a shrine if sri pada is close IMHO, because if an enemy AI gets 1st pantheon, 2nd pantheon gets more expensive, and the 6 faith from sri pada is gonna get you pantheon much faster in that case then a 1 faith shrine.
5. monument if you didnt get it at 3
6. archer
7. archer
8. anything till you get collective rule (shrine?)
9. settler spam. Try to predict how much happiness you're gonna get from all the luxes lying around to settle. It's not bad to be a bit in negative happiness anyway, because you're not interested in growing much.
10. pyramid wonder / archers when in negative happiness.

You don't need to build walls at all. As shown in my 1st and 2nd game you can keep shaka under your thumb with archers (upgrade them with the money from religion. you need colloseums anyway so its a good tech.)

Tech:

1. shrine tech
2. AH
3. archery
4. mining
5. calendar for lux?
6. petra?
7. colloseum / archer upgrade
8. mud pyramid
9. civil service for open borders

To be honest im not even sure if petra is needed. I might try a 3rd game without lol.

 

[Bemep42]

Cultural victory 139

Institutions: Tradition (turn5, I wanted to play through science, but on the t6 I found both wonders of nature and changed my mind) - Piety (t13, for the shrine) - honor! (t22, for culture and money from the camps) - Organized religion (t34) - religious tolerance - Reformation (t85, SS) - heavenly mandate - finish Piety - Liberty - Republic.
Wonders: The Parthenon (97), the Oracle (1xx) and the Pyramids (139). I spent a turn or two on Hanging Gardens, I didn't try to build any other wonders.
Buildings in the capital: scout(*3, t13), shrine(t16), monument (t22, up to 4 pop), buy archer (28,40), settler (33,42,51,58, etc.)
ruins: culture, spear, map, gold, inhabitant, writing (t12), culture, map, bronze working (t18), faith (t45)
technologies: pottery (t10), mining (t16), AH (t23), archery (t28), calendar (t36), philosophy (t60), masonry (65), etc.
The 2nd city was founded on sugar near Ur (38) (there was a barbarian camp + units near Uluru), the 3rd - on incense near Uluru (44), the 4th - near wheat on incense (54), etc.
On turn30, i stole a worker from Ur, on t31 from Bratislava, on t36 from Zulu. Later, when trying to steal a setler, I stupidly lost a spear and this greatly delayed my city near Mount Kailas (7th city, turn 74)
In my game, AI (Ethiopian) took desert folklore on turn 11, oral tradition on turn 17, the divine ruler on turn 35, and only on 37 turn, I took unity with nature. The Ethiopians founded religion on 36 (cathedrals, world church), and strengthened it on 65 (mosques, defender of the faith). I founded a religion on 58 turn (it took 260-270 faiths, pagodas, rites of passage), later strengthened (monasteries, 25%(50%) faster)
On the same turn as me (that is, before me), Morocco received the reformation. I was lucky he chose a Jesuit education.
On turn 100, I had 12 cities and 1 settler. +14 tourism per turn. At the end i had 21 cities and + 88 tourism per turn. In Nobamba, (I took for peace) turned out to be the writers guild, which gave me a writer whom I turned into a masterpiece.
Ethiopia resisted my influence much longer than the others. And although she opened the borders without any problems, she was too far away for trade routes and for the prophet from piety. And I didn't have the mind to give them a city for trade routes...
I'm going to replay from save 100 turn, give them a city and hope to win 10 turns, but I don't have time for that yet)

 

[Megalou]

Cultural victory 139

Institutions: Tradition (turn5, I wanted to play through science, but on the t6 I found both wonders of nature and changed my mind) - Piety (t13, for the shrine) - honor! (t22, for culture and money from the camps) - Organized religion (t34) - religious tolerance - Reformation (t85, SS) - heavenly mandate - finish Piety - Liberty - Republic.
Wonders: The Parthenon (97), the Oracle (1xx) and the Pyramids (139). I spent a turn or two on Hanging Gardens, I didn't try to build any other wonders.
Buildings in the capital: scout(*3, t13), shrine(t16), monument (t22, up to 4 pop), buy archer (28,40), settler (33,42,51,58, etc.)
ruins: culture, spear, map, gold, inhabitant, writing (t12), culture, map, bronze working (t18), faith (t45)
technologies: pottery (t10), mining (t16), AH (t23), archery (t28), calendar (t36), philosophy (t60), masonry (65), etc.
The 2nd city was founded on sugar near Ur (38) (there was a barbarian camp + units near Uluru), the 3rd - on incense near Uluru (44), the 4th - near wheat on incense (54), etc.
On turn30, i stole a worker from Ur, on t31 from Bratislava, on t36 from Zulu. Later, when trying to steal a setler, I stupidly lost a spear and this greatly delayed my city near Mount Kailas (7th city, turn 74)
In my game, AI (Ethiopian) took desert folklore on turn 11, oral tradition on turn 17, the divine ruler on turn 35, and only on 37 turn, I took unity with nature. The Ethiopians founded religion on 36 (cathedrals, world church), and strengthened it on 65 (mosques, defender of the faith). I founded a religion on 58 turn (it took 260-270 faiths, pagodas, rites of passage), later strengthened (monasteries, 25%(50%) faster)
On the same turn as me (that is, before me), Morocco received the reformation. I was lucky he chose a Jesuit education.
On turn 100, I had 12 cities and 1 settler. +14 faiths per turn. At the end i had 21 cities and + 88 faiths per turn. In Nobamba, (I took for peace) turned out to be the writers guild, which gave me a writer whom I turned into a masterpiece.
Ethiopia resisted my influence much longer than the others. And although she opened the borders without any problems, she was too far away for trade routes and for the prophet from piety. And I didn't have the mind to give them a city for trade routes...
I'm going to replay from save 100 turn, give them a city and hope to win 10 turns, but I don't have time for that yet)

You got to keep Writer's guild in a captured city? That sounds very rare. I thought such buildings would disappear the same way national wonders do. I think writer's guild is pretty ok with a 2-4 tourism potential and in my reruns I have built it in the wheat area south of the starting position. Well played btw!

 

[sebtanic]

Wow I didn"t know you could capture a Guild! How is that even possible?

 

[Bemep42]

I usually create guilds myself late, so I've had similar cases many times.

 

[raider980]

Resigned T195. There is no hope.

In this game there were only a scant number of years of peace. The 2nd Zulu War lasted more than 1000 years. Then there was 10 years of peace. But the mighty Zulu army attacked again as soon as the treaty was up. It only took the Impi Army a few turns to destroy the Songhai will to continue the fight.

The amazing thing was the AI actually did something smart! Shaka faked me out. He laid down two Citadel's at the doorstep of Taghaza, the well defended city in the mountains. But he secretly sent a massive Impi army around to the west and burst out of the desert to destroy the undefended city of Tombouctu. Good game Shaka, good game!

Spoiler Zulu Victory :

 

[Rhodro]

To be honest im not even sure if petra is needed. I might try a 3rd game without lol.

Yea, seems getting petra is even detrimental. I just won 3rd game at turn 113 (also no faith ruins like my 2nd game). The only wonder I got is oracle, this speeds up getting reformation belief. So this game was a little bit more focus on getting mud pyramids earlier. I went for mud pyramid tech before colloseum tech.

Spoiler :

 

[zxcvbob]

Yea, seems getting petra is even detrimental. I just won 3rd game at turn 113 (also no faith ruins like my 2nd game). The only wonder I got is oracle, this speeds up getting reformation belief. So this game was a little bit more focus on getting mud pyramids earlier. I went for mud pyramid tech before colloseum tech.

How often do you get beat to Sacred Sites? I just had someone take it on about turn 50. (presumably Ethiopia but I didn't check to see)