TSG14 After Action Report

[kcd_swede]

I gave this a second try, with all the prior map knowledge. I didn't build enough units. By the time I had only French and Mongol capitols left to take, the French had a carpet of doom of roughly equivalent tech units (cannon + rifle). I attacked anyhow, thinking I might be able to get Paris in a blitz before his troops rallied. (Nope). Losing all those units incited Mongols to DOW me (they would have anyhow, they had wiped everyone else they could reach) with his UU, some xbows, and pikes at first, later cannons and rifles. I had 2 cannon and 2 rifles defending... but lost by conquest defeat anyhow.

For most of the game I felt I was in a much improved position compared to my first attempt. However, it wasn't improved enough. The longer you take to kill them, the harder it gets. (Pretty obvious, I know, but there it is).

I learned a lot playing this again. But I am too afraid of another beating to try a 3rd time. Maybe.

 

[Muaziz]

I played this map yet again, 7th and last time, into a turn 117 win. Keep in mind that by now I know the map inside out, I am first to discover the City-States of Sidney, Singapore, and Hanoi sending my initial Warrior to the SW; and also first to Brussels, Seoul, and Geneva sending my Scout (first thing I built) to the East.

I did like settling on the inland hill (1 tile NE from the starting Settler position) in both my games 6 and 7. Coastal tiles are bad, and more River tiles are good. As it turns out, you can still get the coastal Silver pretty fast, and that was the first tile I improved (researched Mining immediately after Writing).

As tommynt mentioned, buying the Cow tile once the city hits size 2 is a strong play because border growth takes 15 turns, and your only 2f 1-ring tile is the River Cows which your 1 pop starts on. Buying the 2-ring Cow allows you to work a 3f tile instead of the 1f/3c Marsh Spices. That's a big difference for early growth.

I research Pottery then Writing which hits on turn 20. A turn later, I borrow 90g for 4gpt to buy a Library with exactly 380g on the dot. I had just signed Open Borders with Khan for 50g and Caesar for 5g. In none of the games I played did Caesar ever sign OB for more than 5g; why is that?

My initial build order was: Scout, Monument, Worker, NC. I still like the Monument in second because I wanted to play Tradition into Liberty -> Citizenship -> Meritocracy. The extra 3 cpt from Tradition combined with the much faster border growth was excellent with a starting location that had many 2-ring tiles, and some 3-ring tiles worth getting. This also meant more Luxuries that could be sold to the AIs. And the gold would be needed for RAs as well as upgrading and buying units.

Worker hits on turn 27, with Mining having come in on turn 24. The Silver tile pops from border growth just as my Worker arrives (it was the only tile that could pop so I didn't have to worry about having to buy it which would have otherwise been plan B).

I steal a Worker (my second) from Seoul on turn 32 which is the earliest I've seen a stray worker on this map. He heads back to the River Forest Spices to chop, speeding up the NC by a turn.

Turn 39 gives me the Citizenship SP for a free Worker and 25% faster improvements. Liberty had been on turn 26, and Tradition on turn 18. Doesn't really matter now when Meritocracy hits as long as it is before are with Metal Casting (which will be hard tech'ed later).

NC completes on turn 40, after which I build a Granary. I don't really want to build a bunch of 0 XP Warriors at this point since it will mean more unit maintenance costs, and I know that I won't have the gold to upgrade too many later on.

At this point I feel that the game is going about as perfectly as it can. The only better scenario I can envision would be for Sydney to have a Worker captured by a nearby Barb camp so I could clear it and free the Worker for +60 Influence hence becoming allies and getting a nice +3f bonus. I don't see any other way to have Kyoto grow fast given how few good food tiles we started with nearby (two 3f Cow tiles is all). At the same time, I don't see spending 500g early on Sidney for the Maritime bonus. I could barely sign 4 RAs gold-wise by turn 61 as it was.

Research was: Pottery, Writing (for early bought Library), Mining (for early Silver Luxury), AH, Trapping (for Ivory), Masonry (so that my 3 Workers could clear some Marshes while I moved on to more expensive techs), Sailing, Optics (to send my Scout to meet the Iroquois/Greeks), Calendar (since I had time to improve my 3 Spices before needing RAs), Philosophy.

Note that waiting to get Optics after Philosophy will prevent you from signing a 4th RA early enough. And you will need 4 RAs plus the GS from Meritocracy to get the 5 expensive techs you will need: Steel, Compass, Civil Service, Edu, and Astro.

You can also delay techs like Masonry, Calendar, and Trapping, but that will obviously mean delaying the selling of Luxuries to the AIs. And you will need a good bit of gold to sign 4 RAs since the AIs might not be in the Classical Era and some of them will probably need loans as well to reach 200g.

In this game, I signed the following 4 RAs:
* Rome (turn 52): required a 94g loan and a 100g penalty because he was no in the Classical Era (which he would not hit until 5 turns later).
* Napoleon (turn 57): required 94g loan.
* Alex (turn 58): required 75g loan.
* Hia (turn 61): required 135g gift.

I did not RA with Khan since he never had quite enough gold or gpt, and didn't hit Classical Era until turn 62. In fact, in none of my 7 games did Caesar or Khan get to Classical Era prior to turn 55. Note that I did not want to risk waiting on Rome since I knew I could take him out fast many turns before Astro; he was also a threat to attack me and break the RA if I waited too long.

After all that, I am left with 21g on turn 61 after signing the 4th RA. To sign 4 RAs by turn 51 probably requires an insane amount of luck with regards to AI cash flow and inter-AI trades. You also need some luck to have your Embarked Scout not get gibbed by a Barb Galley after sailing NW of Sidney.

I had built a Barracks as soon as I researched Bronze Working (and pushed the pending Warrior to the bottom of the queue). After that (since I still wouldn't have Iron for 8 turns or so), I opt for the Heroic Epic (all units receive the Morale improvement which improves Combat Strength by 15%) over the Armory (+15 XP). I don't think the Armory is as good for 2 reasons: a) 2gpt maintenance, and more importantly b) my units will start with a free promotion (for healing), and I doubt they will need to heal again until they have gained 15 XP on their own. I think this worked out well as almost all my Samurais ended up healing twice and having no promos to spare at the end.

I GS bulb Steel after researching Metal Casting on turn 73. I have 2 Swords (recently upgraded from Warriors) waiting to upgrade to Samurais and head to Rome. These two, along with another, would eventually form my force that would invade the Iroquois, then Greeks. I think attacking earlier with 2 Swords is doable, but risky. I think you really need a 3rd to be sure nothing really bad happens. In any event, they will need to come back home to be healed and upgraded before heading out again.

Army 1 (2 Samurais): Rome -> (3rd Samurai joins from Kyoto) -> Iroquois -> Greece
Army 2 (3 Samurais): Mongols -> (GG joins from Kyoto, Sail E) -> Aztecs -> Russia
Army 3 (3 Samurais): France

The last 3 cities (Athens, Paris, and Moscow) all fell within 1 turns of each other, so the army split and timing once again was very tight.

If I could have managed a slightly earlier Astro, then the initial force should head to Khan first, and get at least 1 reinforcement Samurai to help with Russia. I don't think I could have taken Khan, Aztecs, and Russia with just 2 Samurais without stopping to heal (since they would have been out of heal promotions) which would have killed too many turns.

 

[tommynt]

nice writeup Muaiz:

things I did better I think:
-Monument 1. - in a no hut setting I allways do this
-buying worker instead of building it - could do 2 more early units instead to do much needed scouting and scare opponets - well u didnt need them
-they could exp up a bit by fighting barbs aswell
- declaring war after getting g/t from ai - well thats a 2 sided sword or so - as I did stay in war with rome nearly all game that way ... but as said if you back up your war with units ai ll usually declare peace after
- guess that way I was better moneywise ..

- after doing the RAs think greece gets into class in t51 - thats why turn 81 astro) I bulbed CS right after while having 2 river farms 1 turn later - and buying sydney few turns after - nice grow boost ....
-changed all tiles from prod to max grow - was size 8 before t70

worse:
well all the wars took me longer then u as I just didnt know ai positions (Russia possition was kinda obvious for me for some reason) - espacially atzek took some time ...

 

[slugster]

I assume that with no RAs, you have a lot more leeway without purchasing buildings as you go. I'm curious if you bothered to build Waterwheel and Forge. I have a hard time judging whether those are worth it in a non-Science/Diplo game.

I did purchase a few buildings, including Forge to maximize the Swordsmen production, but didnt calculate if it was needed. I had a quite early Ally in Sydney and didnt have the tech for Waterwheel, so I never build it. Probably should have done that when I could tech it for 1 turn, but was desperate to get to Astro.

Was it a mistake since you were able to get enough GE points with just your Workshop specialist (and the +1 GE point from the GLib) without building it?

Yes. My workshop specialist was more than enough. Actually had to delay it to not have the engineer wait around for Education. It purchased Workshop after Metal Casting to take maximum advantage of my production, but I had neglected growth a bit too much and Education was still a long time away.

I've generally found the Honor tree to be worthless, and it seems to get worse the later you get it too. Did you just want the free GG? Would patronage not have been better give how many CS buddies you had?

I wanted to go for Patronage right after Liberty tree, but because I felt the need for Optics, I had to delay Metal Casting (and thereby Patronage tree). And I had Seoul (+ Stonehenge, again a mistake) as ally so the SPs kept ticking in. So Tradition and Honor was mostly just fillers. And when Patronage finally opened up it was too late. The GG from Honor was nice, but with my many Samurais it was actually a bit overkill.

Thanks for the insightful report.

You are welcome

its 3 more shields then a mine - thats 150 shields in 50 turns (more turns dont matter in such a short game)

strong

guess getting a GA would be much stronger - for a about 20 shield size 8 city thats about 6 shields and 10 gold for 10? 8? turns - stronger imo

When I get my GE it usually increase my capital from 6 or 7 in production to 10-11, which is a much bigger boost than a GA. I also nearly always settle on Cow (unless there is Sheep) for the pop growth. In this game the GE didnt arrive as soon as I wanted because of the no-huts setup, where I either get culture or gold to buy Friends with a culture CS before turn 19 (which nets you 40 instead of 35 points and therefore more turns of culture boost).

I know that settling the GE (instead of insta-build GL or using a GS to pop a tech) is probably not the stronger strategy. But I'm a builder at heart and simply loves the flexibility of a high production capital. I even sometimes use the GE produced by the Workshop specialist to settle in my second or third city to give it a production boost if I'm low on money for purchasing buildings.

 

[tommynt]

I even sometimes use the GE produced by the Workshop specialist to settle in my second or third city to give it a production boost if I'm low on money for purchasing buildings.

Well if u do it by heart just do it - but as it neglegtes another tile improvement its just bad to plant them in 99% of cases imo - the wonders u ll usually rush with the GE are mainly just way too strong too pass em ..
also is civ multiplicative, meaning the faster your start is the faster u ll progresse later on and so on and so on.

 

[killerloop]

The discussion between Muaziz & Tommynt made me start replaying as well, with RA's. I just signed 3 RA's on turn 50 and hope to finish GL ~turn 62 for CS. Theoretically I should be able to get to Astronomy by turn 80!

I didn't buy a worker, so I only have two. I build NC on turn 39. Let's see if my maths are working, and if I can get the Glib.

 

[Muaziz]

The discussion between Muaziz & Tommynt made me start replaying as well, with RA's. I just signed 3 RA's on turn 50 and hope to finish GL ~turn 62 for CS. Theoretically I should be able to get to Astronomy by turn 80!

I didn't buy a worker, so I only have two. I build NC on turn 39. Let's see if my maths are working, and if I can get the Glib.

You should be able to get the GLib, and if you read my original game posts (that seems like so many posts ago), you will see that the problem with building the GLib is that you spend *sooo* much time on it that you don't have time to get an army (Swordsmen) in place by the time you get to Steel. And if your army is not on the move by turn 90ish, you are not going to conquer the world by turn 110ish.

My point was that to have Steel + Astro by turn 80-90, you needed to bulb 5 techs: Steel, Compass, Civil Service, Education, and Astro. That meant 4 RAs and a GS (from Meritocracy). You certainly can also do it with 3 RAs, a GS, and the GLib.

But getting Astro earlier only really helps you if your army is ready to go sail off and conquer the world.

 

[Onan]

Hmmn, my game's technically still in progress, but as I don't really plan on finishing it, thought I'd post here. I think I left it around turn 250 or so...Moscow has just fallen (to rifles/cannon), and the troops are sailing around to...I think it's Tenochtitlan. Leaving Greece and the Iroquois to finish off. But I don't think I can be bothered. I guess the appeal in these games for me is in doing well compared with others, and I missed the steel boat on this one. Ah well.

Edit: oh, one thing I was pleased with was my cap at this point was at least size 31.

 

[Ribannah]

No RA, no stealing

VICTORY - DOMINATION

Turn 137 (540ad)
Score: 1166 (HOF)

Progress reports: turns 1-64, turns 65-107


Athens was the last capital to fall, it took a few turns to get there through the marshes. But the timing was OK, Paris went the turn before and Tenochtitlan the turn before that.

All the AI were pushovers, we largely ingnored their military units. The Swordsmen from Rome finished first. They swam due east, straight towards Moscow as it appeared, and had no problems whatsoever.

Two Samurai took out Karakorum, healed undisturbed in place until peace was declared, and then swam east as well. They signed Open Borders with the Aztecs and found Tenochtitlan defended only by a few Jaguar Warriors, that stood idly by as their capital fell.

A bunch of three Samurai (one bought), accompanied by a Great General, found Onondaga with a City Walls but that didn't stop them for long. They made peace with the City State between Iroquois and Greece just in time to get free passage to Athens.

Paris fell easily to two Samurai that took the ice route, before the reserve arrived.


Kyoto
108 Samurai
111 Samurai
115 Samurai
116 Samurai 590g, Great General
119 Samurai
121 Swordsman
123 Swordsman
127 Aqueduct 460g
128 Samurai
129 Great General
136 THE GREAT WALL


Policies
127 Rationalism


Technology
108 Construction
112 Currency
121 Chivalry
125 Engineering
132 Machinery

 

[Muaziz]

No RA, no stealing
VICTORY - DOMINATION
Turn 137 (540ad)

You and slugster both played really good "no RA" games. Very impressive.

After the arrival of Education, we bought a University, set two scientists to work and started on Oxford, which gave us Steel, while researching Compass by hand. Then, last turn, Kyoto popped both a Great Scientist and a Great Engineer, which yielded Astronomy and the Porcelain Tower respectively.

Turn 106 Astronomy with no RAs is very nice. You didn't even need the GS from the Porcelain Tower to pop it.

Looks like your early Deer and Bananas combined with that Granary, and later Sidney gave you excellent city growth.

 

[Tabarnak]

Great one Ribannah! Looking forward next strats with new patch!

 

[slugster]

Impressive game, Ribannah!

You focused on growth first, where I gambled on "fractal = pangea map" with steel first and early army production. I did steal my second worker (where you bought yours), but it was quite late for me, so 2 early workers paid off for you.

I'm gonna miss the early free GP from Meritocracy after the next patch, but I'm looking forward to most of the changes.

 

[Muaziz]

One reason I wrote up a very detailed report was to try and stimulate conversation about the reasoning behind decisions. And keep in mind, that almost all of these decisions will change with the next patch, but that's ok, since the basic approach to better play will not.

tommynt, I still don't know what your SP policies were like, but if you went straight into Liberty, then I can see why Monument first would be better, In my case, I was trying to maximize City-State gold since I know that early Social Policies would not be an issue starting Tradition into Liberty. I think that on this
map, that was a very good approach. [Once again, please note that all of this is about to change come next patch.]

I was actually surprised when I replayed the first 20ish turns, going Monument first, then Scout still allowed me to discover Brussels and Seoul first, although Khan beat me to Geneva.

I am intrigued by your "buy Worker first" approach. If there's one thing I've learned from reading DaveMcW's report
is that a fast early Worker is a good idea.

However, I really felt like this map was not as well suited to the fast early worker for several reasons:
a) The only River tile that can be improved without Masonry (due to all the Marshes) is the River Cows.
b) There are three Spices around, but two of them require Masonry to clear, and then Calendar.
c) Our only 3+ food tiles within 2-ring are the 2 Cows (until Masonry can clear the River Marshes).

I loved your play to buy the 2-ring Cow tile for extra early growth. I think that is one of non-obvious plays for newer players (like me) that I was really impressed by.

But where do you go once Kyoto goes Size-3? You have a nice 2f/2c Ivory (unimproved tile), but that's about it. You also have the Silver tile which will likely be your first Luxury. But if you want growth past Size-2, then Masonry + River Farms seem like the only way to go. I didn't go that route, and maybe that was the difference maker.

And this is where tommynt's brief, but brilliant reports kill me. I catch a glimpse of what he is doing, but have a difficult time understanding what he did to get there. Don't get me wrong, no one here is under any obligation to reveal any of their secrets. So we are left hanging with the possibility of what is achievable while struggling on how to make it happen. It's not a bad problem to have...

Do you start with Mining or Pottery -> Writing. This is actually a pretty technical question and depends on a lot of factors:
a) Do you plan to buy a Worker as soon as you have 310g,
b) Do you plan to build a Worker second? If you build a Worker 3rd, you have time to research an extra tech before you research a tech needed by your planned Worker to improve a tile (e.g., Mining or AH).
c) Do you plan to buy a Library as soon as you have 380g (with an AI civ loan presumably)? If so, you can usually buy it around turn 21-23 (with a 4gpt for 90g loan). This means that you need to research Pottery->Writing first since you won't have time to research a 3rd tech before Writing. Also, if you go this route, you are not buying an early Worker.

Going Mining first is useless if you can't (or don't plan to) build, buy, or steal a Worker early. If you want to buy a Worker, you may need to start Pottery -> Writing for Open Borders and hope that at least one AI Civ will give you 50g for your puny Borders. (PS: I can't say that I blame Caesar for never offering me more than 5g for my Borders).

Looking at what tiles can be improved within the first 2 rings of the city: Silver, Cows, Spices (requires Plantation, so that's not an early possibility), and Ivory (requires two techs: AH and Trapping).

Along these lines, the initial build order can have a significant impact on the early game. The top 3 things you normally want to build/have are (in no particular order, so let's make it alphabetical to stay neutral):
a) Monument
b) Scout
c) Worker

Let's start with the Worker since he always gets picked last in school due to his name starting with a 'W'. The first question is build versus buy? Also, if you plan to start with the Liberty -> Collective Rule (free Worker) Social Policies, then maybe you don't need to build an early one. If you start with a Monument and follow this SP line, your free Worker will pop on turn 25; that's pretty early given that a Worker takes about 15 turns to build from a size 2 city. The earliest you can steal one from City-States is around turn 30; but then you will also spend several turns escorting the stolen Worker back to your territory. You can usually buy a Worker for 310g around turn 15 assuming you can find some City-States early and are willing to take an AI loan (1gpt -> 22g, 2gpt -> 45g, etc).

On a map With Ruins enabled, a Scout first can lead to some great benefits; benefits that far outweigh going Monument first (e.g., 30 culture from a Ruin, soon to be nerfed to 20, but still better than a Monument first build).

On this particular map, settling in place might have been the best choice after all. Several folks, myself included, stated that Coastal tiles were garbage and hence move 1 NE to the Hills River tile. Well, yes, Coastal tiles are garbage, but the starting spot had two good 3-ring Food tiles in Bananas and Deer. Normally, 3-ring tiles would not necessarily be a big consideration. In fact, with this start you couldn't see the Bananas or the Deer without moving the Warrior. But you could luck into the Bananas as your second city growth tile and then buy the Deer for 100-150g and then the early Granary (which gives +1f for Wheat / Bananas / Deer seems like a great early building).

Remember when after my 7th game on this map I said that it was the last time I would play it? Yeah, well... I lied.

On my latest play-through (which I have officially labeled as 8.3... let's not talk about 8.1 or 8.2, shall we?), Rome declared War on me on turn 44. On the bright side I didn't have an RA with them for obvious reasons (hint: Philosophy was still a while away since I wanted to get Optics first). But one thing is clear. The AI (not sure that a human player would fare that much player) cannot take a city over a River with 5 Warriors with a single Warrior as Defense. You pretty much need Swords before you can take a city.

And to be honest, I love this change in Civ5. In Civ4, I hated the fact that if my initial Warrior started exploring, I could auto-lose to a Barb Warrior (keep in mind we had no City ranged attacks and no city defense in Civ4).

 

[Half Nelson]

I have played Civ for 20 years (according to the Civ1 manual on my bookshelf) yet this was my first ever OCC. Was concerned about happiness and money, but neither proved to be a problem. Turned out to be a fairly straightforward victory. I was quite pleased with my effort until I saw the staggeringly quick wins posted here, so now almost embarrassed to post. Settled in place, focussed on pop growth and military:- I didn’t build a single road or happiness building. Built 2 armies:- one attacked Mongols, Aztecs, Russia, the other Rome, Greece and Iroquois. They then linked for the final attack on France, who had been a useful RA / trade friend until that point. It was infantry / artillery vs rifles at this point. On reflection, I built far too much infrastructure and was not aggressive enough with my forces. The biggest problems were with barbs, especially the galleys that chewed up my initial exploring scouts as they reached the coasts of the other continents:- very annoying!!

 

[Farrapo]

I was motivated by the excellent comments of Muaziz, tommynt, and Ribannah to play the game again, albeit already knowing the layout. I won't go into all the picks here other than to say I opted to settle in place, picked Monument as first build and Tradition as first S.P. That gets you to Meritocracy about 10 turns later than starting with Liberty, but you end up with way more city expansion tiles and Merit. still comes in time to grab want I wanted. So I used a hybrid of the forgoing players' approaches, but since I dislike tech blocking - and am delighted it is going away - the general scheme was more along the lines of Ribannah's. I signed no RAs, stole no workers, and actually only allied with one C.S. (for iron). That is atypical for me as I like lots of C.S. alliances ... and I predict they will be important to maintain happiness when the next patch hits.

Everything went great and I was ahead of pace because I used the Meritocracy pick for a GE, built the Gr. Lib. with it, had sequenced Phil. a bit earlier and got Civil Service at that point. Then it came time to push the swords east from Rome toward (the undiscovered, but known to be there) Russia. There sat a barb galley and I had no way to clear it. Ditto earlier when I went west to explore the continent there ... zapped by a barb galley.

That leads me to the point I want to make. Why did so many of the top scorers choose to play this scenario without building a single ship to explore and clear barbs? How did they manage to find the one right crossing point to the west and guess the location of the two remaining civs east? How did they manage to avoid barbs in the crossings? I'd say that was pretty amazing luck or intuition.

In an unknown fractal geography isn't it prudent to do some early boat exploring just as one explores land nearby with a scout? Sure, it sets you back some turns to build a trireme and you have to pay to maintain it, but you learn the contours of the land and crossings (if any), you may find some natural wonders, you clear out barbs and upgrade the boat(s), you win XPs toward a GG, , you may support a land assault on a location, you can protect your crossings, etc. If you find out no ocean crossings will be necessary then you may even alter the science sequence and not aim for Astro.

So while it is very interesting to figure out the best science/build/social policy sequences for an already known map ... and I learned tons from the comments above ... I think it is equally interesting to think through the most prudent overall approach for an unknown map. For me an important early goal is to find out the lay of the land(s) and then adjust the various sequence possibilities accordingly. I can't imagine playing an OCC scenario on fractal without some sea exploration, although I'll admit that with map foreknowledge or perfect luck and intuition of course you can get a quicker result by never spending time or gold on boats.

 

[numaru7]

That leads me to the point I want to make. Why did so many of the top scorers choose to play this scenario without building a single ship to explore and clear barbs? How did they manage to find the one right crossing point to the west and guess the location of the two remaining civs east? How did they manage to avoid barbs in the crossings? I'd say that was pretty amazing luck or intuition.

i'm not a top scorer or anything, but normally on an "all metric normal map" desert tiles clustered together means the equator. If you go left and right from there there is more than 85% chance you'll see land in both directions after a while. At least that's what i observed from Civ 2 until now. And yes, luck also plays a big role, but if you want to be sure, you bring an archer with you

 

[xiziz]

Got caught out by Rome with a (from my experience) very early DOW at turn 48 while my lone warrior was off stealing a worker. Was just starting up production of warriors but Rome came in for a full surround and beat me down. Thought I was doing fairly well otherwise, NC at t45, was first to find 5 CS. I'll probably replay the game later again, seems like a fun scenario.
Went trad->LE, Scout-wrk-granery-NC buying my lib at turn 34 when the granary finished.

 

[Ribannah]

Why did so many of the top scorers choose to play this scenario without building a single ship to explore and clear barbs? How did they manage to find the one right crossing point to the west and guess the location of the two remaining civs east? How did they manage to avoid barbs in the crossings? I'd say that was pretty amazing luck or intuition.

In my game, I saw no barbarian Galleys, accept for some that got sunk by city states. Also, initially I thought that a Trireme could find itself trapped south of Kyoto. By the time we could build a Caravel, the game was almost finished.

The crossing to Iroquois / Greece was the only place that looked interesting enough to check, because of multiple extra coastal tiles.

 

[tommynt]

That leads me to the point I want to make. Why did so many of the top scorers choose to play this scenario without building a single ship to explore and clear barbs? How did they manage to find the one right crossing point to the west and guess the location of the two remaining civs east? How did they manage to avoid barbs in the crossings? I'd say that was pretty amazing luck or intuition.

I cant speak for others but scouting is just superimportant on all those watermaps, so I allways got like 3-4 units and try to time builds to when optics hit or move em soon enough back into own territory (- in last HOF f.e. (wat-abuse) I was superbusy building Settlers and therefore bought 2 scouts for money as soon as I hit optics -) and just send em in different directions - also sometimes landbriges are semiobvious. Experience is there useful imo - barb ships are very uncommon before turn50 and I rather loose 1 scout worth 20 shields or so to building a galley

In this I had 3 "possible" bridges in my mind
east of Rome
somewhere around the peninsula west of France (!)
west of Sydney

I know that early Social Policies would not be an issue starting Tradition into Liberty

early sp are ALLWAYS an issue, getting 1. faster means also next faster an so on ...
easpacially getting this 1. sp fast is superimportant (thats why i prefer sp hut to all others) as its increases the rate of getting sp points.

Getting 1. trad sp for occ is superobvious I guess - it doesnt slow down getting free worker by much (even at all?) as you cult accquire rate is way faster and the boarder expand is very helpful

I am intrigued by your "buy Worker first" approach. If there's one thing I've learned from reading DaveMcW's report
is that a fast early Worker is a good idea.

usually fast worker is a good idea and usually buying it is faster then building. For occ I changed my start to superfast NC meaning no mining early meaning no need for early worker - so I got mine pretty late (bought it 2 t before mining hit with a small loan I think).

For all other questions my 1. 50 turns:
move warri inland see 2nd cow - hill plant + 2 cows - obvious to move inland imo - also I m no galley fan
occ, no hut = monument 1. and scout next - warri went n then w scout se
tech was pott then writing
next I built a warri or 2 as lot of barbs camp all around
slowly before finish of wrritng I had met 3 civ who all had some spare gold (around 100-150) so well - manage tiles to g/t sell to civ and DOW --> buy libary the turn writing hits .. start NC right after
mining next buy worker 2 turn befre finish with last gold (well guess i coundt do another loan )
France and Mongols are happy to declare peace (I had 3-4 units ..) Rome isnt (I check often if its willing but just isnt)
no other civs around --> tech optics next
optics get me into class france got Class aswell - I sell my gems and RA with it (too early ...) send 3-4 units around all map and build more as still war with rome
Bought worker + free worker + stolen + 1 far from France(barb) = 4 Workers to improve all tiles fast - delete em after their jobs to save money
After I tech Philo and Bronze to RA and clear swamp - well after RAs - free scientist to CS - and all into food tiles to grow fast - tech right towards stell - RA it and blablabla

well all other is straight foward, sell lux to get every cent from AIs, kill some barbs to exp up and hopre for missions (unlucky here ..) upgrade, units divide into armies - kill ...
in retro I should have built barracks some time early but I somehow cba with it all time

And well I had the scout finding Greece moving around all world so I knew half of map before Astro and 1 continent east was obvious - just took me ages to find Tecs ....

 

[Muaziz]

That leads me to the point I want to make. Why did so many of the top scorers choose to play this scenario without building a single ship to explore and clear barbs? How did they manage to find the one right crossing point to the west and guess the location of the two remaining civs east? How did they manage to avoid barbs in the crossings? I'd say that was pretty amazing luck or intuition.

In my first game (before I knew the map), I had scouted pretty well and I knew there was an ocean to the west of France, and the other ocean to the east of Khan. When Optics hit, I had a few places where my (now embarked) Scout needed to check out. The closest of them just happened to be NW of Sidney. I had gotten the +1 Visibility and +1 Move promos (parking the Scout near a Barb Galley that gave me +2 XP/turn while I healed). That meant that I could see there were some water tiles that might be connected to another landmass. Also, the +1 Visibility makes it much less likely that you will get gibbed by a Barb Galley when you first embark.

I played about a dozen replays of this game that went at least until Optics, and in three of them, I either had to carefully tread near a Galley (waiting for Sidney to kill it in one case, waiting until it left in another). There was one game where there were 3 (!!) Barb Galleys between Sidney and the Iroquois/Greek landmass; i just quit that game since it threw off all my timings and I knew I had no options until Astronomy.

So the short answer is a combination of good scouting and luck.

In an unknown fractal geography isn't it prudent to do some early boat exploring just as one explores land nearby with a scout?

The early production is so important, that it's often hard to squeeze in a Trireme, especially in an OCC.

While they are great at clearing Barb Galleys and useful for protecting your Scouts, the problem I tend to have is that they don't move that fast you really need to time where they are going to be by the time you hit Optics. Often, you'll also have 2 Scouts going in opposite directions, so now you need 2 Triremes if you want to protect both.

If you find out no ocean crossings will be necessary then you may even alter the science sequence and not aim for Astro.

My plan there was to have Meritocracy give me a GS which I would bulb for Steel after researching Metal Casting. If we didn't need Astronomy, then all those early RAs would essentially be useless (I guess Civil Service is still a little useful), but that's ok since we had Steel and would be able to conquer the world with Samurais.

So while it is very interesting to figure out the best science/build/social policy sequences for an already known map ... and I learned tons from the comments above ... I think it is equally interesting to think through the most prudent overall approach for an unknown map. For me an important early goal is to find out the lay of the land(s) and then adjust the various sequence possibilities accordingly. I can't imagine playing an OCC scenario on fractal without some sea exploration, although I'll admit that with map foreknowledge or perfect luck and intuition of course you can get a quicker result by never spending time or gold on boats.

On this particular map, you can probably Scout all your landmass using only a Scout and your initial Warrior. And if you had built a second Scout, that would have been more than enough for sure. Yes, there is a risk with losing an embarked Scout, but they are cheap and you can always build another one in a pinch (they cost very few Hammers).

I used to build Triremes more, but it seems that no matter what the map, the better players fare much better using embarked Scouts so I started doing that more and, in general, found it a much better approach as long as you are careful about it.