TSG14 After Action Report

[Muaziz]

It is possible, if you can ignore IW for a little bit, block would be set on MC instead of Steel.

Without ignoring Steel, on my 2nd replay, got Astro on t88.

I am confused. You got t88 Astro "without ignoring Steel". So does that mean you already had Steel?

And I can easily see getting Astro in the early 80s with 3 RAs, I just don't see how you get it that fast while also getting to Steel. The only way I can see it is if you get Optics before Philosophy to discover the other continent (Iroquois and Greeks), and then have enough gold to sign a 4th RA. But then I don't see how you have the gold for it all given that you don't have Calendar and Bronze Working (and you need both to improve the Spices).

It's clear that I am missing something, I just can't figure out what it is to make the math work.

Btw, you had 11 deals where Napoleon and Khan provided you Gold every turn. That seems like a lot. I assume some of those were for loans to help finance the RAs, but still seems high.

 

[DaveMcW]

Friendly AIs will borrow 31g for 1gpt, or 63g for 2gpt.

Making many loans saves you money.

 

[tommynt]

Making many loans saves you money.

U state that as if making loans would generate you money what just aint true.
U can either
sell 31g for 1g/t or
buy 22g gor 1g/t
both deals leave you after 30 turns with less then getting pure gold instead or leave you with less gold overall.
I VERX rarly buy gold and g/t deals are just an option if ai dont have pure gold to buy stuff

 

[kcd_swede]

U state that as if making loans would generate you money what just aint true.
U can either
sell 31g for 1g/t or
buy 22g gor 1g/t
both deals leave you after 30 turns with less then getting pure gold instead or leave you with less gold overall.
I VERX rarly buy gold and g/t deals are just an option if ai dont have pure gold to buy stuff

Thanks... this buying and selling is definitely a weak part of my game (one of many weak parts, ). I've had trouble seeing the logic of these gold-losing deals unless I really need need need the beneift immediately.

I got shy selling luxuries and strat resources when I'd inexplicably (by me) lose all of something that I couldn't spare. Has that aspect (disappearing resources) been fixed?

 

[Neuro]

U state that as if making loans would generate you money what just aint true.
U can either
sell 31g for 1g/t or
buy 22g gor 1g/t
both deals leave you after 30 turns with less then getting pure gold instead or leave you with less gold overall.
I VERX rarly buy gold and g/t deals are just an option if ai dont have pure gold to buy stuff

Lets say you need to give Napoleon 120 gold to make an RA with him.

You can either offer him 126 gold for 4 gpt or you can make 4 deals of 31 gold for 1gpt. You save 2 gold in the latter deal.

The AI charges 5% to borrow gold and 25% to loan gold, but it's rounded down. So by doing deals of 31 gold for 1gpt, you always save .5 gold per gpt.

Btw, I'm not submitting a game this GotM, Dom games bore me, plus they are the easiest to abuse with prior knowledge, so I never feel like I can compete. I'm assuming Dave has already completed his game since he's reading this thread, so I'd be very curious to see his write-up and how it compares to tommy's 113 win.

 

[DaveMcW]

I'm assuming Dave has already completed his game since he's reading this thread, so I'd be very curious to see his write-up and how it compares to tommy's 113 win.

Turn 106 Astronomy with two rounds of RAs, turn 143 win.

tommynt seems to have the perfect strategy, nothing for me to add.

 

[Muaziz]

You can either offer him 126 gold for 4 gpt or you can make 4 deals of 31 gold for 1gpt. You save 2 gold in the latter deal.

Ahhh, very sneaky, well that explains Airey's 11 gpt deals all completing in the same turn. I never noticed the 1gpt delta.

I'm assuming Dave has already completed his game since he's reading this thread, so I'd be very curious to see his write-up and how it compares to tommy's 113 win.

I've replayed this map 6 times now and I still can't figure out a way to get Astro and Steel by turn 81 without huge economic sacrifice. You have to get early Optics because you can't do it with a 4th RA (as far as I can tell).

But even with that 4th RA, I'm not sure you have time to tech block everything you need in time. The 5 techs you get from the RAs + GS (from Meritocracy) are: Steel, Compass, Civil Service, Edu, Astro. But that means you need to have completed Theology, Metal Casing, as well as blocked Archery, Wheel, and Construction. I couldn't get the beakers to do that until turn 89 (note that I did research Masonry to clear the Spice Marshes, but I guess you can block it instead of Construction and save a couple turns there).

I am still not sure what the optimal kill order was for this game. In my last game (turn 124 win), I got Steel on turn 86 and immediately upgraded 6 Swords which split into two groups of 3. I went with:
Army 1 (3 Samurais): Rome -> (4th Samurai joins from Kyoto) -> Iroquois -> Greece
Army 2 (3 Samurais): Mongols -> (4th Samurai joins from Kyoto, Sail E) -> Aztecs -> Russia
Army 3 (3 Samurais): France

The last 3 cities (Athens, Paris, and Moscow) all fell within 3 turns of each other, so the army split and timing seemed pretty good.

 

[Airey]

I am confused. You got t88 Astro "without ignoring Steel". So does that mean you already had Steel?

maybe I phrased it wrong. should be delaying Steel. Complete Phil earlier (by skipping IW) and finish Optics (instead of MC) would allow Astro to be complete by T80ish. In exchange for later Steel bulb from the GS (social policy).

Wars itself takes ~20 turns to complete. So prob start moving out by T90ish. MC should take 10 turns to complete by then, plus the Steel bulb. It's possible, but most likely would be out of $ by this time, unless use the sell lux and DOW tactic. Otherwise, just move out with Swordsmen earlier and fight cities without Walls. But that's a huge gamble not knowing what Civs are out there besides the initial 3.

U state that as if making loans would generate you money what just aint true.
...

Making loans basically just lets me complete RAs faster because AI had no money.
ie) AI making 20gpt with zero gold on hand. Would have to wait 10 more turns for AI to accumulate to 200G to sign a RA.

You can manage to time RA's income to when Phil is finished for optimal RAs.

Even post Summer Patch, I would still think RAs would be one of the main strategy to gain early science. Especially considering where NC's moved and it's effectiveness.
RA remains to be one of the more efficient way to gain early tech beakers. What's changed is the sequence and timing of RAs.

 

[tommynt]

I m think that in a replay I could do a sub turn100 win

I am confused. You got t88 Astro "without ignoring Steel". So does that mean you already had Steel?

And I can easily see getting Astro in the early 80s with 3 RAs, I just don't see how you get it that fast while also getting to Steel. The only way I can see it is if you get Optics before Philosophy to discover the other continent (Iroquois and Greeks), and then have enough gold to sign a 4th RA. But then I don't see how you have the gold for it all given that you don't have Calendar and Bronze Working (and you need both to improve the Spices).

It's clear that I am missing something, I just can't figure out what it is to make the math work.

Btw, you had 11 deals where Napoleon and Khan provided you Gold every turn. That seems like a lot. I assume some of those were for loans to help finance the RAs, but still seems high.

Getting the reasearch for prior techs was no problem at all - I used about 4 turns. reasching "nothing" (construction or compass a bit more)

My only problem was doing 1. RA too early which ended up in getting metal casting just close before steel and compass no fully blocked (no huge thing as compass was on RA list aswell but earlier samurai helped - couldnt plan ahead when doing this RA ... havent even meet all civs possible)

Also what helpes early reaserch should be pretty obvious .... grow fast and buy librabry as soon as its available - I bought the cow tile after meeting 1. CS - helped growth kinda I guess

 

[Muaziz]

maybe I phrased it wrong. should be delaying Steel. Complete Phil earlier (by skipping IW) and finish Optics (instead of MC) would allow Astro to be complete by T80ish. In exchange for later Steel bulb from the GS (social policy).

Thanks for the clarification. Yeah, that makes sense and in my most recent game, I could have gotten Astro around turn 80, but that would have required 3 RAs + the GS which would have meant hard teching MC and Steel.

Wars itself takes ~20 turns to complete. So prob start moving out by T90ish.
Otherwise, just move out with Swordsmen earlier and fight cities without Walls. But that's a huge gamble not knowing what Civs are out there besides the initial 3.

Of course, you'd rather move out with Samurais than Swords. 2-3 Samurais will crush anything at that stage, but 3 Swords can suffer a casualty. Also, the other issue is that you can't upgrade them unless they are in your territory. So I can see attacking Rome with your first 3-4 Swords, then coming back to upgrade them. But the Mongol coast was pretty close to the Aztecs so it wouldn't make sense to go back for upgrades, and I don't think you can kill the Mongols and Aztecs (and possibly Russia depending on how you split your forces) with just 4 Swords.

MC should take 10 turns to complete by then, plus the Steel bulb.

If you still have your GS from Meritocracy then I don't think you can get Astro by turn 80. Here are the 4 techs you need which you don't have time to hard research:
Compass, CS, Edu, Astro. Although I guess if you delay Iron Working you can hard research Compass instead, but that really sets you back and it also means you can't build Swords (which in turn means you will have to build Warriors and upgrade them once Iron hits, which will require more gold).

It's possible, but most likely would be out of $ by this time, unless use the sell lux and DOW tactic.

Yeah, that's not a tactic I use. Of course, who am I to talk when I was tech blocking like a fiend.

Making loans basically just lets me complete RAs faster because AI had no money.
ie) AI making 20gpt with zero gold on hand. Would have to wait 10 more turns for AI to accumulate to 200G to sign a RA.

Yeah, I understand and utilize the loan concept, but what I was missing is what Neuro pointed out. Basically, multiple 31g for 1gpt loans are better than a 63g for 2gpt.

 

[Airey]

If you still have your GS from Meritocracy then I don't think you can get Astro by turn 80. Here are the 4 techs you need which you don't have time to hard research:
Compass, CS, Edu, Astro.

Well, just speculation. I still don't know how he can have Astro and Steel fast enough. Especially needing to upgrade at Capital. I think it's more likely to complete Steel first and hard tech Astro while finishing all civs but 2 (Russia and Aztec).

 

[slugster]

Game: Civ5 GOTM 14
Date submitted: 2011-06-21
Reference number: 24455
Your name: slugster
Game status: Domination Victory
Game date: 640AD
Turns played: 142
Base score: 272
Final score: 971

So the next patch is finally doing something about the RAs. As in the previous GOTM I this time chose to not use RAs, which I thought would hurt me more than it did.

My initial strategy was the same as in previous game: Ally with a culture CS and get a free GE and settle him for a quick boost in hammers. Then build GL and pop Steel and pump out Samurais. Luckily we had Iron inside borders and a friendly culture CS close by so this worked fine. Unluckily there was only 2 other civs on the continent. Or so it seemed. I actually met Sydney and then turned around thinking it was a dead end, only to find the landbridge to France many turns later (the barbs had to come from somewhere!).

When I realized that I had to get to Astronomy I changed my plans a bit and delayed to hunt for Steel until I could get optics and then started scouting. While scouting I started pumping out Swordsmen (for upgrade) and with the iron from Sydney I quickly had 12 Samurais which was sent in all direction. In the end I took the last 3 capitals in the same turn.

I think I got Astronomy aroun turn 128. With no RAs it looked like a long time to reach it, but with my city focusing now on growth and with a GS from Porcelain Tower (insta-build with a GE from Workshop specialist) it actually fitted quite nice with my armies being ready to swim east.

Order of kills
Army 1 (4 Samurais + GG): France --> Alexander (--> support for Hiawatha)
Army 2 (3 Samurais + GG): Rome --> Hiawatha
Army 3 (3 Samurais): Mongols --> Aztec
Army 4(2 Samurais): Russia

I ended up with a lot of SPs because I both allied Seoul and build Stonehenge. The last was actually also for the GE point, but in the end building Stonehenge was a mistake. After the Liberty tree (for the Worker + GE) I took Tradition (to hook up some more luxuries - not really needed actually) and then focused on Honor.

What did I learn in this game? Two samurais (created with barrack, heroic epic and armory) can take out a capital on their own. In the beginning I used 4 + a GG, but that was overkill and in the end I took out Russia with only an army of 2.

I also learned to not assume anything about a Fractal map. That was one weird map. And the need for scouts even without huts.

Now I'm looking forward to the patch and our "new" civ game.

 

[Muaziz]

So the next patch is finally doing something about the RAs.

Was going to ask where you found the upcoming patch notes, but I think it came from this thread.

As in the previous GOTM I this time chose to not use RAs, which I thought would hurt me more than it did.

142 turns is great time for a non-RA game.

My initial strategy was the same as in previous game: Ally with a culture CS and get a free GE and settle him for a quick boost in hammers. Then build GL and pop Steel and pump out Samurais...

I think I got Astronomy around turn 128. With no RAs it looked like a long time to reach it, but with my city focusing now on growth and with a GS from Porcelain Tower (insta-build with a GE from Workshop specialist) it actually fitted quite nice with my armies being ready to swim east.

I assume that with no RAs, you have a lot more leeway without purchasing buildings as you go. I'm curious if you bothered to build Waterwheel and Forge. I have a hard time judging whether those are worth it in a non-Science/Diplo game.

I ended up with a lot of SPs because I both allied Seoul and build Stonehenge. The last was actually also for the GE point, but in the end building Stonehenge was a mistake.

Was it a mistake since you were able to get enough GE points with just your Workshop specialist (and the +1 GE point from the GLib) without building it?

After the Liberty tree (for the Worker + GE) I took Tradition (to hook up some more luxuries - not really needed actually) and then focused on Honor.

I've generally found the Honor tree to be worthless, and it seems to get worse the later you get it too. Did you just want the free GG? Would patronage not have been better give how many CS buddies you had?

Thanks for the insightful report.

 

[Tabarnak]

142 turns is great time for a non-RA game.

The settled GE is powerful.

 

[tommynt]

its 3 more shields then a mine - thats 150 shields in 50 turns (more turns dont matter in such a short game)

strong

guess getting a GA would be much stronger - for a about 20 shield size 8 city thats about 6 shields and 10 gold for 10? 8? turns - stronger imo

 

[thio]

Lost. All in all i can conclude that i don't like OCC games

 

[Tabarnak]

its 3 more shields then a mine - thats 150 shields in 50 turns (more turns dont matter in such a short game)

strong

guess getting a GA would be much stronger - for a about 20 shield size 8 city thats about 6 shields and 10 gold for 10? 8? turns - stronger imo

4 extra hammers per turn(if settled on a grassland) can shave a few turns on a swordmen army. He built 12 of them(upgraded) after all. GA so early and with 1 city only doens't affect much. Settled GE is stronger i think. I got 2 GAs in my game and it wasn't game breaking.

 

[Muaziz]

its 3 more shields then a mine - thats 150 shields in 50 turns (more turns dont matter in such a short game)

guess getting a GA would be much stronger - for a about 20 shield size 8 city thats about 6 shields and 10 gold for 10? 8? turns - stronger imo

Preface: Most of this discussion will be moot with the next patch due to the large number of changes.

The Manufactory can be built anywhere and given that Food was a real limiting factor in city growth this game, I can see how a Manufactory along the river would have been nice. Also note that a Manufactory will also clear the Marsh (I assume you need to have researched Masonry) when you place it, so you can drop it for a sweet 2f/4p/1g tile with wasting Worker time.

To clarify the "50 turns" number above, it takes roughly until turn 46 (assuming Monument after Scout, and no Culture friends/allies) to get your 3rd SP if you start Liberty -> Citizenship -> Meritocracy. If you go Tradition and then into Liberty, it takes you to ~ turn 59.

That means that you are getting roughly 50-70 turns of use out of Manufactory in a Domination game which is expected to last 120-150 turns.

On turn 46 (at least on this map), your city is probably size 5 or 6 with about 10 production. On turn 59, it's probably not much larger -- maybe 7 tops -- and production isn't all that much higher either at 11 (assuming no Workshop or Stables). Note that those production numbers are right before connecting Iron which you might have done earlier in your game.

So if you do plan to use your GE for a Golden Age, you probably need to sit on him (and pay unit upkeep for it) for a bit. I think this skews the math a little.

 

[MacPlayerJay]

Game: Civ5 GOTM 14
Date submitted: 2011-06-21
Reference number: 24460
Your name: MacPlayerJay
Game status: Domination Victory
Game date: 1310AD
Turns played: 191
Base score: 244
Final score: 642
Time played: 2:16:00
Submitted save: TSG14 Game.Civ5Save
Renamed file: MacPlayerJay_C501401.Civ5Save

This was my first OCC game and first game with Japan. This is also only my second GOTM, so I am not used to trying to win as soon as I can.

I made a lot of mistakes that cost me turns. The biggest was not realizing we were playing KING. I started playing then read some of the in progress posts and realized it was KING. Therefore I beelined to steel before attacking and prob. could have taken out some CIVS with swordsmen.

The other big mistake was trying to build up my capital. I really did not need half the buildings I built, could have just built samurai and dominated.

I went down the Honor branch for the first time ever, and it was awful. I guess if I was going to be upgrading more it would have saved me money, but otherwise just not very helpful. Hopefully the new Honor branch will be much better.

Thanks for everybody's detailed write-ups. Mine is not as detailed because it is not as exciting. I play on a Mac, so I guess this is my last GOTM for awhile. These are fun.

 

[Maxym]

Game: Civ5 GOTM 14
Date submitted: 2011-06-19
Reference number: 24445
Your name: Maxym
Game status: Domination Victory
Game date: 1300AD
Turns played: 190
Base score: 300
Final score: 789
Time played: 9:34:00


my first OCC game and a first real try to do it properly, focusing on taking out enemy capitals as quickly as i could. i thought i was doing quite well until i saw some of those posted finishes. WOW

i got warrior rushed by Rome, took them out first (3 Samurai) after getting steel from GL, their warriors delayed that quite a bit by standing on my mine sites

then sent those 3 plus |G|G and extra samurai to take france, in meantime found non ocean link to alex, and sent those guys there next. he proved a tough nut, almost lost 1 unit and had to use most of my saved promotions to survive, and regroup. take one of his other cities to open up some space.

built 3 more Samurai, and when ANother GG popped fighting Alex, sent those to take Genghis, then sailed east from his location into unknown. met monty who was Afraid, loved that... met russia, took monty quickly, then bought open borders to walk my army up through russia.

meantime moved my forces against iroquis and it was a quick and painless conquest. but Russia proved a hard nut to crack, had 5 or 6 cities and bunch of knights near capital. i thought, 3 UU and GG would be enough especially since they were well upgraded to fight in the open and had both heroic epic and honor promotions. was i ever wrong, his 4 knights tore me apart and i was scrambling for the hills north of Moscow. i lost one and saved two, including 1HP samurai who fled to the sea to escape. i sold what i could to whomever i could to ally two city states in the north, and kept sending them my samurai. it helped to avert disaster, but they would not move against moscow. my frigate arrived in meantime and with its help my loaned samurai destroyed rest of russia's knights

i moved against the capital with just 2 UU and GG hoping it would work, and knowing that if it didnt my 2nd army was on its way, but i would never beat 200 turn limit i set for myself at the beginning . furtunately i got a knight from a city state south and it arrived at the capital at same time and drew most of the couterattacks allowing my Samurai to storm its walls...

Rome and |Genghis Dowed me while this was going on but they were hopeless. i guess if i knew how deadly those knights were i would have lured them into my northern CS allies and used Himeji bonus to destroy them, as i just built it to deny it to Russia. So maybe 10-15 turns earlier, at the most. I cant even imagine a 113 turn win.

i am replaying it to see if i can do better by sending one army through france to alex and hiawatha, and second one through Rome, genghis, monty and russia