TSG37 Game in Progress

[TasfromTAS]

Alright, so this is my first attempt at Civ V Immortal.

I settled down south two spaces on the hill. Not sure if it helps increase city defense, but it feels safer. Feeling a little paranoid.

My usual build order is monument > scout > wonder, and that's what I plan to stick to. I start down the Liberty social tree to get the free settler and worker. Start researching Pottery so I can then get writing and start on my papermakers at least.

I send my warrior off for a bit of a look-see around the place. Ooh, Japan is next to me, that's a bummer. Ooh, is that a settler I see? Already? That can't be right. Wait, what? He has a bunch of warriors too?

Man what the hades this game is nuts. Oba comes at me with like six warriors, while my one guy hightails it back to Beijing. So that's how it's going to be huh? I immediately start researching archery, and by the time the Japanese arrive on Beijing's doorstep I've managed to purchase an archer and establish Shanghai on the coast. Between my Archer and Warrior, the two city defenses and the protection offered by the Heavenly River of +20% Defence, I've managed to rebuff Japan every time. Slowing me down a lot though.

Anyway short story shorter I've basically been at war constantly with Japan. One time he panicked and gave me a bunch of gold and stuff for peace, but then broke the peace like 8 turns later. Whatever fella. Managed to settle another city, and lucked out with both iron and horses. I have a tireme out exploring for a place to start New China because I have a very strong feeling I won't be able to last.

Either way, this is a lot of fun.

Spoiler :

EDIT: Update

Okay, now turn 218, and things are looking grim. I actually managed to conquer Tokyo and build some citadels and forts around the place, making me feel secure. Too secure. I had my eye on Osaka to the south, and started to think how I could attack Japan without getting everybody all hating on me. Japan had a lot of units that I could see, but they were almost all archers and pikemen, with a few samurai. Yeah, I could take em.

I built as many Cho-Ku-No as my economy could handle, I got four neighbors to DOW Japan, and I took a few pot shots at his border units. For about 30 seconds, I was feeling extremely smug.

BUT THEN

Oda pulls five cannons out of his fundament, and they start tearing me apart. Seriously, he's being invaded by Hiawatha & Darius, as well as Arabia and Siam, and it's little old China, topping the reverse leader-board that he decides to invade. Anyway, a slow motion disaster unfolds, and right now I'm sitting on the brink of collapse. I've lost Tokyo & all my military units are dead. But wait, all is not lost! I managed to get a settler off and build a city of the other side of the world, far away from the barbarous Japanese.

Right next to Mongolia.

FFS.

Anyhow, I will continue my glorious struggle. We will see if I make it to turn 300.

EDIT EDIT:

Ok, so Japan conquered my last mainland city about turn 250. I now have two cities left. One on a speck of land in the middle of the sea, the other on the same continent as Mongolia. I wish I had the time to play it out and see if I could survive till the end, but...

 

[Arnold_T]

Awesome game Tabarnak! what SPs did you go with - all Liberty, then left side of Rationalism? Also one Freedom?

My game is going slower, but I think I can win this one.
I decided to eliminate Oda, and took his remaining cities by T97.
I had decided not to go for Glib, since I hate losing that race, but went for Hanging Gardens - but lost that race by a few turns. No biggie though, I managed to get the important ones Hagia Sofia T110, took a GE, and got PT built T114. used the PT GS to bulb Astro and get Rationalism T130. The Oracle went really early in my game (before I even had a chance to think about building it).

RAs are going OK. Arabia and Hiawatha have been a pain DoWing on me. I have taken a couple of cities off of each of them though. I lost a few units trying to take the Arabian capital - had to back off when I realized he had Himjei Castle built there. doh!
Hiawatha has the Great Wall so it's kinda slow taking cities off him too.
I'm at T201 now, and in the lead both in score and tech, so I think I can coast to a reasonable T250-260 finish, even though Siam and England are both really strong. Siam has taken the Russian capital, and has 75% all the City States under control. I expect to lose my last CS to him soon enough.

 

[Arnold_T]

Hey LTGJ Perry,
I just read your post and your comment to start it: "...my first serious attempt at immortal, I have decided to write up my effort more than usual. Comments welcome."

I have four comments for you:

1. build more cites early (which you already know).
WHY? at Immortal you need to get in front of the Science race, which means you need more cities for resources to trade for money to fund RAs. more cities also allow you to more easily build military units for defence (archers).
HOW? The best opening for social policies is Liberty, then "Free Settler", to get the second city ASAP. Also that "Free Settler" SP enables the capital to build another settler quicker, for your third city.

2. you need to explore the world more.
WHY? to find the other AIs in order to get RAs with them.
HOW? I like to build a scout first, and usually two scouts. This game my first builds were Scout1, Scout2, then Monument. once you can embark get the scouts out on the water looking for other AIs on other land masses.

3. RAs, RAs, RAs.
WHY? It's the only way to win the tech race.
HOW? Sell excess luxuries for money to fund RAs. sometimes even trading the enemy money for his end of the RA. At Immortal the AIs generally have a lot of money, but early in the game they may be short. It's really good if you can exchange money for a gold/turn deal from them, but you may just have to give them cash. don't fear going into unhappiness selling too many resources. just don't go too far (-9 at most), and have a plan to get back into happiness. sell strategic resources too - you don't need many for yourself. I usually sell all or most of my horses, and keep enough iron for four units. Also, once you're ahead on tech you can sell coal, oil, and aluminum to the AIs even though they don't yet have the tech necessary to use it!

4. maximize RA return by:
- prioritizing Hagia Sofia (to get GE), use GE to build Porcelain Tower ASAP.
- prioritizing Rationalism SP ASAP

 

[Thresian]

My first try was a wash. I moved the warrior to the hill to the south, found the river, moved the settler to settle between the mountain and the river. Tried for a GL start, Oda declared very early and I lost on turn 30. I actually had the liberty settler at that point - he was hiding in Dublin - but even if I'd managed to settle him, I wouldn't have a chance on immortal after losing my capital. I'd sold my gpt to Oda to buy a worker, and of course I got them back when he declared. In retrospect, I should have sold them again and bought a warrior.

Second attempt: settled in the same place, but went for a 4-city sword-rush opening. Not really enough iron - I managed to stretch to 4. I sold my gpt to Oda again and bought a worker again. He declared again, but this time I'd built some warriors (I did something like scout, monument, warrior, warrior, settler, settler, and 2nd, 3rd and 4th cities all started work immediately on a warrior) and fought him off without too much difficulty. I also nabbed an unescorted settler from him.

Darius also declared, and I moved down the coast against him, taking two cities with 2 swords, 2 chariot archers and a GG. He and Oda both paid me for peace.

I missed the Hagia Sophia, but built PT (using the GE from the liberty finisher). While the universities were building, Oda, Harun and Darius all declared (all breaking RAs). There follows a slightly crazy war on 4 fronts, and Oda captures one of the cities I took from Darius. Oda and Darius both offer a white peace, which I accept. Unfortunately, I can't transfer my troops fast enough to stop Harun from capturing my 4th city.

By this time I've got universities up and manned in my 3 remaining cities, and start spamming units. I've teched astro, and taken the Rationalism opener, so I can finally go back and pick up the late medieval military techs.

Oda declares again, and I capture Tokyo and Kyoto with my Cho-Ko-No. Oda has just bought peace, so now I need to do something about Harun.

 

[Tabarnak]

what SPs did you go with - all Liberty, then left side of Rationalism? Also one Freedom?

5 Liberty, 1 Rationalism, finished Liberty, sci. rev.(Rationalism), then rest of Rationalism.

I picked the 2 free techs a bit too soon. I could wait 17 more turns and use them to unlock spaceship parts techs instead of rushing through Apollo. I would have saved a bit of turns that way i think.

 

[flairin]

It's never useless to continue...
At least, you'll beat thoses who lost pre- turn 50

Ill continue playing... I just noticed that I have iron in my borders... along with my allied city-state I could've been playing with four swords the past 40 turns and taken out Japan... eek

 

[godotnut]

turn 150

Went liberty and founded one city and one only before I was attacked by Japan. Defended a middling invasion with an archer and a warrior while I finished GL, bought a paper maker in city two, then did NC in capital, followed immediately by Hagia Sophia for the GE to bulb the Porcelain Towers.

Meanwhile signed and finished three early RAs to get my Cho Ko Nus up early. Saved money to upgrade three archers and easily swept all of Japan with them and a couple pikes. Also too a City State that declared because it was allied to Japan. I bought a courthouse in Tokyo. Now I have three cities and three puppets. I also built the wonder that gives plus 10 happiness.

I have one university and another on the way in one turn and a third in six more. I have one observatory.

Science: 129/turn
Gold: 66/turn
Culture: 44/turn (two cultural CS allies)

I have filled out the Liberty tree plus two techs in rationalism. I have 5 RAs waiting in the wings over the next 20 turns or so.

I am guessing I will win in maybe turn 230 or so, but I'm not sure.

 

[ense7en]

Okay, i am experiencing some kind of game breaking bug suddenly.

I got off to a terrible start, lost my second city for a while to Japan, etc, anyway, doesn't matter.

What matters is that when i last saved i was -9 unhappiness.
I now reload the game from that exact point and somehow it's -18 unhappiness...

I even loaded an autosave from a few turns before and it's still like -9 worse unhappiness than i had when i was last playing.

I don't understand what is going on, but i have a screenshot of when i last played, and absolutely nothing has changed till the new screenshot where suddenly my unhappiness is way worse.

I verified that the game has not changed version, it's the same as it's been for months.

What is going on?!...

When i last played:

Spoiler :

Now, absolutely nothing has been changed:

Spoiler :

 

[leif erikson]

Do not know for sure, but the build times remaining in your cities are all different between the two screenshots.

Did any deals for Lux's expire and were not renewed yet?
Did a Courthouse build not complete yet?

Can't really tell from here, but looks like something is surely different.

 

[ense7en]

Do not know for sure, but the build times remaining in your cities are all different between the two screenshots.

Did any deals for Lux's expire and were not renewed yet?
Did a Courthouse build not complete yet?

Can't really tell from here, but looks like something is surely different.

The build times have changed because production gets nerfed due to the sudden extreme unhappiness that didn't exist the last time i was playing (a few days ago).
I am loading directly from the exact save file i made the last time i stopped playing.

I checked all the cities to see if somehow some buildings had disappeared, but nope.

No lux deals changed, as again, it's identical to the last time i played.

I don't know how to prove it, but the happiness is somehow being calculated differently now, and i cannot understand why.

I even went back to an autosave about 15 turns previous and it's still broken.

I don't have screenshots of every ten turns so i cannot say exactly when, but it seems like somehow at some point way back the happiness became broken in the saves.

Basically i'd have to go WAY back in time to continue now, and i really have no desire to redo the game in that way even if it was allowed.

I'm just baffled...i've never experienced this before and i do not see how it's possible.

 

[Tabarnak]

It's pretty weird for sure.

 

[Arnold_T]

maybe it has to do with the puppeted, annexed, and recently conquered cities? I keep reading about a Courthouse bug, don't know how it works really, but maybe it gets reset on a ame reload?
Also, there appears to be smoke from pillaging in farms in the second screen-shot that isn't there in the first-screenshot. don't think that should make a difference, but maybe some resources also got pillaged? or traded away? try declaring war on civs that you have trade deals with to get the resources back. maybe the save was before a DoW?

 

[ense7en]

The only city with a courthouse is Osaka, size 6.

No policies taken that affect courthouse happiness.

Does anyone know the numbers for this courthouse bug? Would it be able to cause 9 extra unhappiness for a size 6 city?

 

[Arnold_T]

possibiy. 3 per the three puppetted cities maybe? there are quite a few threads on the topics. google search turned up a bunch, including this one: http://forums.civfanatics.com/archive/index.php/t-431557.html

there are other reports of big unhappiness changes after game save reloads too.

 

[Arnold_T]

BTW, considering you have 2200 gold on hand, I'd suggest you buy a another courthouse in one of your other puppetted cities, and see if you can reactivate the bug. It may be the easiest way to get the game back close to state you had it in before.

 

[leif erikson]

Here is a link to the Courthouse Bug Thread, should you still need it.

 

[Halcyan2]

1. build more cites early (which you already know).
WHY? at Immortal you need to get in front of the Science race, which means you need more cities for resources to trade for money to fund RAs. more cities also allow you to more easily build military units for defence (archers).
HOW? The best opening for social policies is Liberty, then "Free Settler", to get the second city ASAP. Also that "Free Settler" SP enables the capital to build another settler quicker, for your third city.

This is generally true (for obvious reasons), however, there are associated disadvantages. Having more cities tends to exacerbate relationships with other civs, which increases the likelihood of broken RA's.

- There's the obvious "you are expanding too aggressively" modifier
- More cities means you are likely building towards someone, which affects the proximity variables for hostility
- Generally, I've just found it's easier to get along people with a Tradition start with few cities than expanding a lot with Liberty


I'd also like to figure out how the AI's decide between Tradition/Liberty/Honor. I've found that AI's are much easier to get along if they do Tradition or Honor, while I'm more likely to conflict with them (and they are far more dangerous) if they go Liberty. That's kind of ironic - even though most Civ players agree that Liberty is the best, that's mainly b/c of the free GP and the AI doesn't seem to use them very well.

There seems to be some relationship with what you (the human player chooses). In games where I choose Liberty, it's often the case that everyone else chooses Liberty. If I start with Tradition or Honor, I'm more likely to see a balanced array of policies.

Another factor which I think may play a role, is how many other civs they've met by the time they make their choice. I get the feeling (but it's just a theory) that civs that meet lots of others will take Liberty to stay competitive, while isolationists are more likely to be happy with Tradition or Honor. Thoughts?

------------------------------------------------------------------

Back to the TSG37, I find the reports of heavy conflict interesting because other than my early war with Japan (though not as early as most others) and a brief skirmish with Persia, things have been extremely peaceful. Some potential factors:

1. I went with Tradition instead of Liberty. For most of the early game I had a single city and didn't build a second city until much later and never built a third for myself (I did built a third city for Catherine though). I did conquer a few Japanese cities, but I kept my own city building to a minimum.

2. I declared friendship with Harun early on and then with Hiawatha. They also declared friendships with each other, so the three of us formed a coalition until the end game.


Many players have mentioned the AI's "backstabbing" them? Do you mean backstab in terms of attacking you when you didn't expect them to (or after a deal was made or when they appeared friendly)? Or do you mean, in game terms, "backstabbing" you when you were "friends?" I'm guessing it's the former, casual meaning (not the actual, formal backstab), but I want to make sure. I find it rare (though not impossible) for leaders to actually backstab you when you have a Declaration of Friendship and I would hypothesize that my DoF's made my continent far more peaceful than the games most others played.

 

[metalmadt]

I didn't have a declaration of friendship when they backstab me. Only friendly relations and deals going on + mutual war.

 

[LTJG Perry]

Hey Arnold thanks for the response!

Oddly enough I tried several more immortal games since this. And the first one I won (America,Science) I had started with Liberty after several fails with the other 2..


I called backstab, because we were in a war alliance, (and also what the game called it.)

 

[pontias]

played a practise game with same settings and all went pretty well.

played this game and the japanese sacked my cap turn 27. Think I'm last
I guess at this level you need to consider your neighbours a bit more early doors. pretty much impossible to defend early jap rush without getting archery. Replay going OK.