TSG42 After Action Report

[Ribannah]

The point with the mod is that we would play a different game from others.

Of course, the game as such can be improved in many ways, and the AI not handing over large sums of cash is one. Small change, say up to 5x its income per turn, should be ok.

The results from ruins could also be reduced (e.g. a small boost to science instead of Writing, that some players seem to get in each and every game while for most others it is rare).

 

[Arnold_T]

The point with the mod is that we would play a different game from others.

Of course, the game as such can be improved in many ways, and the AI not handing over large sums of cash is one. Small change, say up to 5x its income per turn, should be ok.

The results from ruins could also be reduced (e.g. a small boost to science instead of Writing, that some players seem to get in each and every game while for most others it is rare).

Yes, of course the mod makes it a different game from what others are playing. That's the whole point of modding. What they don't get is that the standard game is lacking in areas, and we need improvements that the developers will probably never get to because they aren't improvements that would sell more games.

I like the list you posted earlier (somewhere else in the forum) of the "usefull things to include in a mod". The AI not handing over large sums of cash is another one for sure. Limiting the amount would be good. Plus maybe the AI could keep track of your trading reliability and the same way that it labels you a "Warmonger" it could label you a "Deadbeat Trade-Breaker" and not give you gold anymore.

 

[TyfoonTurk]

t261

went tradition, with all cities around the jungle and one north near copper/wine

signed 0 ra's and bought each science building

 

[tommynt]

But the rules are the rules and I play by the HoF rules all the time (even in TSG games) just so I don't get mixed up which rules I'm supposed to be using (or not supposed to be using).

just dont forget that civ is a game, rules are made from developers!

When playing vs AI there is for me 1 rule - dont do something AI could not do, just cause its AI.
AI cant reload so I dont reload.
But AI can and does break deals often and over and over. Just go to general forums and see complaints about ai "backstabbing". I remember loads of games in classic where ai backstabbed me and brokke RA which hurt a lot. So why shouldnt a human player be allowed to backstab and breake a deal?
Also this breaking deals comes which a huge pennalty which is also reflected by finish times in these GOTM, I m very good at starting + backstabbing ai sometimes even gives additional headtstart. But in the very long run a peaceful playstyle pays out aswell then u allways get lux for lux deals or 240 instead 80 for your lux or when you are able to do RAs instead getting massdowed from allworld like I do in this gotm.

So there are pros and cons for backstabbing - and infact when when designers prolly didnt intend to do so - it gives human player a choise - and having choises is good.

 

[Gamewizard]

But AI can and does break deals often and over and over. Just go to general forums and see complaints about ai "backstabbing". I remember loads of games in classic where ai backstabbed me and brokke RA which hurt a lot. So why shouldnt a human player be allowed to backstab and breake a deal?

Breaking off a RA is totally different than stealing hundreds of gold, especially in the early game where gains like this give you an enormous head start. It is a cheap tactic and you know it whether you will admit it or not.

A human would never give a lump sum of gold for gpt so your "they do it why shouldn't we" argument is invalid.

But whatever man, it is just a game and you paid for it so you can play it however you want. I myself follow Ribannah's lead and when I see your game and score I pretend like its not even there.

 

[tommynt]

I myself follow Ribannah's lead and when I see your game and score I pretend like its not even there.
Sep 15, 2012 04:02 AM

yeah these games are great, I wish I had this intense sense of allways finding the perfect planting spot even when u dont even see it and the hut pops when u need them most.

A lot to learn i have

I find the Videos from Dave way more interesting, where things dont go perfect at all but in end there are great still very good finish times, but each to his likes I guess.

 

[leif erikson]

We are beginning to push the edges of civility here, please dial back the sarcasm and the accusations.

 

[Arnold_T]

But AI can and does break deals often and over and over. Just go to general forums and see complaints about ai "backstabbing". I remember loads of games in classic where ai backstabbed me and brokke RA which hurt a lot. So why shouldnt a human player be allowed to backstab and breake a deal?...So there are pros and cons for backstabbing - .

yes, generally good points. but the difference is that as human players we learn not to make lump sum gold deals with Montezuma and give him all our gold when his army is approaching us. the AI never learns. I don't really fault you for playing the way you do, and you could do almost as well just by waiting till the AI declares on you as Dave McW and Tabarnak do in their videos. They seem to have a knack for provoking the AI to DoW. this keeps them within the HoF rules, but I think the game still needs to be modded to prevent the Ai from giving away so much gold.

BTW thanks for uploading your video! I learned a couple of useful things for sure about scouting, City State strategies etc.

One thing I'm puzzled about though is why you never scouted north east of the Capital for ruins and city placement spots.

You do a very good job of finding a lot of ruins far from the capital (ones that I had trouble finidng, and getting to with the barbs around). But at turn 39/40 you still haven't scouted just a couple of tiles north east of the capital. wouldn't it be easier to find ruins there? or is there something I'm missing? does the fact that you found another ruin very close to the capital mean that there can't be one there north east of the captial?

Also, at turn 40 you're moving your third settler towards a fourth city site, when you haven't yet scouted the area. How do you know that's where your next city should be? you can only see one Copper. You can't see the wine till you start moving that way, and there are still tons of unexplored tiles there. Also there's an active Barb camp in the area. What's the logic here?

 

[Ribannah]

A lot to learn i have

The thing with giving yourself freebies in the beginning of each and every game, is that you won't. Learn, that is. You don't need to think about investing a turn to move to a potentially better starting tile. Nor to optimize your exploration skills when you can easily afford as many scouts as you wish and pop ALL the huts.

By using exploits, you are robbing yourself from a rewarding gaming experience. At least, that is how I see it.

One thing I'm puzzled about though is why you never scouted north east of the Capital for ruins and city placement spots. (...)

I was wondering about that, too. It is the only area without ruins. I know, because my Warrior went there...

 

[Moriarte]

Interesting discussion. I watched some of your video, tommynt, so, naturally, i couldn't resist to try 'war loans' on Deity. (just for fun)

Not surprisingly i got rinsed below turn 100 completely in all 3 games i tried. In an act of desperation I've set up game #4, playing Maria. 3 DoW's and long story short i cash puppeted three CS's around turn 90. With army of 30 units i was finally set to make it to a finish line. And what a difficult game it was after that. All 9 civilizations (and all of their sad CS allies) were hating me and declaring wars constantly, bringing waves of units. I never finished that game, the difficulty grew beyond the level of fun.

So, i think, while war loans are easy walk to victory on Prince, it takes a lot of skill to do the same on higher levels.

 

[Mesix]

Game: Civ5 GOTM 42
Date submitted: 2012-09-16
Reference number: 27233
Your name: Mesix
Game status: Diplomacy Victory
Game date: 1670AD
Turns played: 244
Base score: 1291
Final score: 2689
Time played: 15:39:00 (I think the game was left on overnight)

I had a good plan which I messed up after saving and returning the next day. I was supposed to have 2 GS (Liberty & Long Count) settled by about turn 86 outside my 2nd city near the mountain where my NC and Observatory would go. Unfortunately, I settled one near my capital instead and used Liberty for a GE without thinking. I also failed to time Oxford and the Rationalism finisher correctly and had to research a lot of the later techs the hard way. These and a few other mistakes probably cost me 30 or more turns, but hey, this is my first Civ5 GOTM submission.

I took out Austria and Sweden early. I tried to take out the Celts too, but CB were not enough to take her well fortified city. After I teched ahead of her, I was no longer interested in returning to war since I had my eyes set on the prize. She was kept busy by Elizabeth and Alexander so didn't bother me much anyway.

I did play through a 2nd time and managed a turn 227 victory despite missing Petra and the Hanging Gardens, mostly because I REXed sooner and further. I submitted my first try though since that is what the rules say. I do not intend to try a 3rd time.

 

[Mesix]

Actually, this isn't against the GOTM rules. It's not against the HoF rules either. It's at T28 where he breaks the HoF rules - by accepting a peace deal from Austria before taking half of Austria's cities (or Austria's capital). The HoF rules are kinda weird I think, basically saying you're allowed to abuse the AI and steal their gold as long as you have a REAL war with them (and a successful war as well).

But the rules are the rules and I play by the HoF rules all the time (even in TSG games) just so I don't get mixed up which rules I'm supposed to be using (or not supposed to be using).

Personally, I think the best answer is to fix the game with a mod that eliminates trading for lump sum gold. or severly restricts it so that the AI is smarter about it. It's funny though there's another thread in the forum where people are arguing against using mods in the TSG/GOTM "because it changes the game from what the designers and developers gave us". I think it's pretty clear that there are a lot of areas where the game can be improved, and the sooner we can start to put features into a civ5 TSG/GOTM mod the better.

An easier way woud be to mod the mechanic so that a trade acts like a 10 turn peace treaty/non aggression pact. Then you have to give gold or resources for at least part of the deal.

 

[tommynt]

You do a very good job of finding a lot of ruins far from the capital (ones that I had trouble finidng, and getting to with the barbs around). But at turn 39/40 you still haven't scouted just a couple of tiles north east of the capital. wouldn't it be easier to find ruins there? or is there something I'm missing? does the fact that you found another ruin very close to the capital mean that there can't be one there north east of the captial?

finding lot of ruins on this difficulty isnt too hard imo, ai is sending one single scout - on deity it got like 3 units labeled scouts. So on deity I wont get more then 1 scout early - rather few units later to do CS barb kill quests which turn up turn 30-50 usually
Sidenote: AI "labels" units for different tasks and they ll allways do this and only this task - a scout will never ever catch a worker fe. it will also never ever attack a 1 hp barb camp

as for scouting north - I have had a warri scouting north - there been just like 5 black tiles before I sent the settler out - well one cant have everything ...
I have seen 1 or 2 lux tiles there - I think whine and dont remember - as happyness was tight anyway there was no other option is to go settle a lux.
I agree that sending unprotected was risky but I have killed a barb just before sending out and had a warri in the region - worst thing to happen d have been the settler catched moving into this north camp (the direction i wanted anyway) and having to kill the camp before quests for it or building another uu for 2 turns - both no gamebreakers - I have sent out the 1. settler risky aswell and a barb stoped me from settling a observatory spot for 3rd city (what definatly hurt in long run) - I think with these settings one have to take small risks which still dont break game when not working out

well and another thing about scout routes - I just allways try to NOT go where i have seen ai scouts ... also I try avoid CS early on - there are never ruins in 2 tile radius around CS in my experience - so seeing CS tile boarder make me turn - same as the celt unit I met made me turn in this game.

And as other have pointed out - I think my gameplay isnt THAT bad - "diplomacy aside".. so maybe just stop arguing about it - if game is that easy this way just try do it yourself and prove

gonna upload part 4+5 next days - been on vacation

 

[Arnold_T]

And as other have pointed out - I think my gameplay isnt THAT bad - "diplomacy aside".. so maybe just stop arguing about it -

I think I've been one of those guys tommy. I'm not arguing about it, I''m just trying to understand your thought process behind some of your moves.

if game is that easy this way just try do it yourself ...

That would be a different type a game though. maybe we should start up a seperate type of GOTM, allowing any and all actions. no rules. what the heck, full map-knowledge too, and play through as many times as you want to get the best possible result. No doubt you'd still kick my butt though!

 

[Ribannah]

AI "labels" units for different tasks and they ll allways do this and only this task - a scout will never ever catch a worker fe. it will also never ever attack a 1 hp barb camp

AI Scouts do occasionally capture enemy Workers.

well and another thing about scout routes - I just allways try to NOT go where i have seen ai scouts ... also I try avoid CS early on - there are never ruins in 2 tile radius around CS in my experience - so seeing CS tile boarder make me turn - same as the celt unit I met made me turn in this game.

You did not turn, you simply never moved in that direction. Much of the NE area is outside City State radius and the AI Scouts do not go there early on.
You had also no way of knowing, without scouting there (despite free Writing you did not buy an embassy), that the Celts block all access to the east until Optics.

 

[leif erikson]

That would be a different type a game though. maybe we should start up a seperate type of GOTM, allowing any and all actions. no rules. what the heck, full map-knowledge too, and play through as many times as you want to get the best possible result. No doubt you'd still kick my butt though!

GOTM as TSG's is about trying different techniques and, I think, pushing the rules. How else can we determine what the trade offs are in different play styles and whether there are built in penalties in the software that rewards or punishes a player for doing x, y or z? As a community, we should use this opportunity to challenge the software in a way that helps us understand where we think the lines should be drawn.

If we get the opportunity to create a mod, knowing what those lines are will help us to draw them in the mod. Let's hope this can be done.

 

[tommynt]

AI Scouts do occasionally capture enemy Workers.

read careful - LABELED SCOUTS -

not every scout from ai is on scout duty - but then sometimes warris are on scout duty
there are lot more duties then that:
escort the settler duty,
attack city X duty (closer city Y will be ignored and able to kill bypassing units), also units and workers not blocking the way toards the city may be ignored
defend homeland duty (not sure if its also defend city Z instead just defend homeland)
..

 

[Arilian]

This is why ruins should be off

 

[Ribannah]

AI units do not have labels. They have assignments, which change frequently.

 

[Arnold_T]

AI units do not have labels. They have assignments, which change frequently.

how do you guys know this? and how do you tell what assignment AI units have?