TSG70 After Action thread

[dthompson32]

Hey folks. I've played this GOTM several times now, and the last two times I've used Glory's strategy. Time before this I got a turn 302 CV, and this one I took a DV on turn 288 rather than wait 32 more turns for the CV.

Here are the detailed moves from the game. If anyone feels like it, I would like some critique on what I could have done to improve times and also make the CV easier. In the end it was a slog because everyone hated me and wouldn't give open borders (which wasn't a problem in the previous game using the same strategy).

This has been my first Diety game ever and also first CV game under BNW.

0 - Found Warsaw at starting location, start pottery, start scout
5 - scout finished, start scout
9 - Katmandu, 8 faith
10 - Scout finished, start Shrine, start writing
15 - Shrine complete, starting Granary
16 - First to a pantheon, take Goddess of Festivals
20 - Writing done, start Calendar, open Tradition, purchased Library
21 - Faith ruin
23 - Legalism
24 - Granary done, start worker
25 - Animal Husbandry from a ruin
26 - switch production to archer since an axeman is advancing up
28 - Calendar finishes, start Philosophy, plan is to open Patronage when it completes with the era bonus
31 - Landed Elite
32 - Archer done, restart worker
38 - Worker finished, start Settler
46 - Aristocracy
48 - Settler finishes, start second Settler while waiting for Philosophy to finish
50 - India offers DOF, Philosophy completes, start Mining, open Patronage, checked all the capitals no one is building Oracle, switch production
51 - DOF with Byzantium, Warsaw grows to 5
52 - Found Krakow on hill next to two mountains to west, takes out barb camp, start Granary (planning to buy Library once someone has enough to buy my wine)
53 - start Drama and Poetry, buy the forest to west to chop, captured civilian and kept it
59 - Returned a worker to Katmandu for the faith boost
60 - DOF with Brazil, finally sold a wine to India, 331 gold, need another sale for Library
62 - Sold wine to Brazil for 124 and 2 gpt, purchase Library in Krakow
64 - Consulates
65 - only one religion left, faith at 185 and rising at +5, going to be close
67 - Oracle finishes, start National College, take Monarchy with free policy, Drama and Poetry finishes, start Theology
70 - Sell extra luxuries (lots of happiness right now) buy a settler to lock down the land bridge to northeast
71 - Cleared camp to south, kept worker
73 - Prophet shows up, DOF with Spain, Golden age, Found Cult of Bacon taking Church Property and Religious Community (+2 gold per city, +1% production per follower)
75 - Lodz built on hill to NE near wines and wheat, buy wine tile because India built city on landbridge too, start Shrine in Krakow, Granary in Lodz
76 - NC is delayed until I have enough cash to buy Library, working on Settler instead in Warsaw
78 - Wine to Spain, buy Library in Lodz, restart NC in Warsaw
81 - Oligarchy finishing off Tradition
84 - Theology finishes, research Bronze Working for Barracks and to show iron, open Aesthetics with free SP, all the CSs hit friend state so 26 happiness, NC finishes so back to finish Settler, generating 32 science
85 - Bronze Working done, start Masonry to take advantage of stone and marble to north, Krakow start Temple
87 - Settler finished, start Garden in Warsaw, Masonry done, beeline to Education
88 - New allies, 34 happiness and 59 culture per turn
91 - Found Wroclaw north of Warsaw next to mountain between marble and stone, start building roads, sell wines and buy Library, start Shrine (will buy Granary shortly)
92 - Fine Arts (culture up to 75/turn), start Shrine in Lodz
93 - Wine to Brazil, buy Granary in Wroclaw
96 - India has finished Education, sold some horses to Spain for enough cash to do an RA
97 - Garden finished in Warsaw, starting National Epic
100 - Cities are size 10, 5, 5, and 3, start Worker in Lodz (only have 3), Philanthropy
101 - Sold two luxuries to Spain for enough cash to fund Byzantium to enter an RA with me
103 - Prophet spawns, enhance religion with Swords to Plowshares and Religious Texts. I want the religion to spread faster to my other 3 cities, but I'm not too concerned about spreading to other civs. I also don't plan to be at war until I have Artillery, so I want to grow in the meantime.
104 - Wroclaw finishes Shrine, start Stone Works
106 - National Epic completes in Warsaw, start Writer's Guild
107 - Temple in Krakow finishes, start Market
109 - Writer's Guild finishes in Warsaw, start Market. Sold wine to Spain, starting to save to buy RAs or a University when Education pops in 6 turns
112 - Worker finished in Lodz, starting Market
113 - Happiness has dropped to 0, switching to production in all cities until I get some CSs back to ally status, Scholasticism
114 - Finished Education, starting Acoustics to open up Renaisance and open Rationalism with the bonus SP, purchased University in Warsaw and locked specialists in to start earning GSs
115 - Market in Warsaw finished, starting Caravan
117 - buy a Missionary in Warsaw, Stone Works in Wroclaw finishes, start University
118 - Great Writer spawns, use it for 444 culture, sell some iron to Spain for 200 gold and new wine to Assyria for 6 gpt, buy Columbo as ally shooting happiness back up to 12, start cities growing again
119 - First spy, sending it to Maya, Krakow now has religion, first GS spawns, planting it for Warsaw
120 - Wroclaw gets religion
121 - Caravan complete in Warsaw sent to Antwerp for quest, start Water Mill
124 - Acoustics finished, beeline to Astronomy, open Rationalism with free SP, take Secularism with earned SP (171 science per turn)
125 - Golden Age, Market finishes in Krakow, start University
126 - RA with Spain
127 - RA completes, 3 turns to Astronomy, market in Lodz completes, start University there
128 - Krakow finishes University, starting market, locked specialists (197 spt)
129 - Water Mill completes, start building a couple Caravans in Warsaw
130 - Astronomy completes, start beeline to Dynamite, switch Wroclaw production to Observatory, RA with India
132 - RAs with Brazil and Byzantium
135 - Great Writer spawns, use it for 615 culture, starting food caravans, upgrade some units while I have cash and 4 RAs are going
136 - Sovereignty, Steal Chivalry from Maya (kind of a waste only had 2 turns before discovering), start researching Printing Press, now 3rd in Literacy, probably can't steal any more
138 - Caravans in Warsaw finished, starting Workshop
140 - Told Assyria is going to attack me, this won't go well for him since I have 4 allies with xbows surrounding him
142 - Krakow finished University, start Observatory
144 - Observatory in Wroclaw finished, restart Market
147 - University finished in Lodz, start Workshop
149 - workshop finished in Warsaw, start Circus, Assyria has troops swarming my lands, wish he would decide what to do
150 - Assyria declares, his army is much larger than mine, but I have 5 allies surrounding him, should be interesting
151 - Circus finished, start Oxford in Warsaw, war already going badly for Assyria
153 - Assyria has been decimated by my allies, he has two pikemen left and Antwerp and I are descending on them like hawks
154 - Chemistry, can start building cannons, Scientific Revolution, Workshop done in Wroclaw, start Ducal Stable
155 - Assyria is out of my territory, letting allies beat him up for awhile to keep him from being a future threat
156 - Finally met Belgrade, steal Banking from Indonesia
157 - Amusing, Assyria asks for 3 cities for peace, he hasn't noticed he has no army left. RA with Spain. Start Workshop in Krakow, Barracks in Wroclaw
158 - Fertilizer finishes giving SP bonus, take Humanism, Oxford completes, take Architecture, start PT in Warsaw (no one has opened Rationalism), put new spy in Warsaw, now number 1 in literacy, cities are 15, 11, 11, and 8
160 - Great Writer, 608 culture, Barracks finish in Wroclaw, start Cannon, Workshop finished in Lodz start Barracks, peace with Assyria
162 - Buy a Great Prophet for the CS quest and to get some cities following my religion (including Lodz which still hasn't converted)
163 - RAs with Byzantium and Brazil complete, India 2 turns ago, 3 turns from Dynamite. New RA with India
166 - Dynamite, building Artillery in Lodz and Wroclaw, Barracks in Krakow, RA with Brazil, beeline to Archeology (won't be able to build Public Schools while building army)
167 - Free Thought, take Economics with the free tech
170 - Start Artillery in Krakow
172 - RA with Byzantium
174 - PT completes, build some caravans in Warsaw to help production
176 - Build Forge, Ducal Stable, and Barracks in Warsaw, start Scientific Theory (389 spt)
181 - Scientific Theory done, beeline to Flight, start Public School in Krakow
182 - Start Public School in Wroclaw
184 - War with Maya
186 - Take Tikal, make it a puppet
188 - Cultural Diplomacy (happiness shoots up to 25)
191 - Start Ironworks in Wroclaw
192 - Start Heroic Epic in Krakow
193 - Great Writer, saving it until Flight for Ideology (Do I need to do this? I get a free policy and might get 2 free tenets if no one has opened Order yet)
194 - RA completes and I get Flight anyway, so guess we will see ... ok, this is dumb, I'm in the modern era but must use free SP before I get to choose an ideology, taking Cultural Centers, need to build those eventually, starting beeline to Plastics, took Palenque but probably can't hold it, lots of troops on other side
195 - Yeah, this is annoying, Indonesia gets Order first, even though I entered modern era last turn, took Hero of the People and used the Great Writer for 820 culture, took Copan and gave it to Indonesia, trying to make friends they are largest army, Peace with Maya, benefit of the back and forth on their capital is it is now only size 2, less resistance, RA with Spain, DOF with India ends in 5 turns
196 - Starting Ampitheaters, detour to Biology since I need oil for my bombers
197 - Brazil RA finishes giving Oil, pay Prague to develop their oil giving me 14, back to beeline to Plastics
198 - Finished 2 Ampitheaters starting two bombers
201 - Socialist Realism
203 - Took Pataliputra from India making puppet, it has Uffizi
207 - Can't wait any longer, I need Factories, starting one in Warsaw (I wanted to get Order factory tenet but it is taking too long)
213 - Used faith for a GE to rush Eiffel Tower
214 - Brazil declares war on me, saving me the trouble, messed up my CS friendships though, -5 happiness first time in game
216 - Took Dehli, but Maya declared on me now. Going to have to build more units
219 - Workers Faculties
225 - Beeline Radar, this has turned into a domination game, Plastics done though, starting Research Labs
231 - Getting a museum and some archaeologists in Warsaw to dig up a couple remaining ruins
236 - Assyria declares on me again (sheesh), all my research labs are done, cranking up the science for 10 turns
242 - Used a Great Writer took Cultural Exchange, start building caravans
244 - Assyria asks for peace
245 - Force Cult of Bacon as the world religion
246 - Start using GSes (I have 8 saved and 2 about to spawn), pops Radar letting me finish Aesthetics tree, using free GA for golden age, upgrade all my bombers, next pop rocketry to upgrade artillery, next pop Sattelites so I can build hubble and get another policy, switch to Freedom because everyone else has it, finally pop Refrigeration for Hotels and start beeline to Internet
247 - Eliminated Maya
250 - India completes Broadway, probably will let him keep it
251 - Starting first Hotel, will build in all cities once Broadcast Towers finish
252 - Indonesia finally eliminates Spain, leaving only 5 civs
254 - Starting Hubble, took Rio, made peace with Brazil, handing out spare luxuries to try and improve relations, diplomats in all capitals
255 - Pop a final GS, Telecom in 1 turn, vote for International Games
256 - Got International games passed and stopped World's fair, switching production to games, Annexing Maya and India capitals to control their production
257 - Rush the Hubble (probably would have been better to use faith for Great Musicians)
258 - Took Universal Sufferage
261 - Internet researched, going for Advanced ballistics so I can do a nuke ban
263 - Won International Games
267 - World leader vote, new patch does make it harder, I was 6 votes short, took Volunteer Army
270 - Start national Visitor Center in Warsaw
272 - Bought a Great Musician, need to do concert tours, especially with Indonesia
273 - Had to declare on Indonesia to get Musician into his territory, I can't get anyone to sign open borders
276 - Media Culture
288 - Looks like Culture win would take 32 more turns, can't get anyone to give me open borders for less than 300 gpt, went ahead and accepted the diplomatic win

 

[Maxym]

It looks to me that your transition to industrial and Oxford as well as Ratio closer bonus need to the thought out better. I know you are trying to beeline dynamite, but taking economics with free tech is awful. You could have set your research path to avoid putting an beakers from RA into dynamite, timed Oxford and slingshotted to modern Era via radio and grabbed two free ideology tenets 30 turns earlier. Or stick with dynamite but use free tech on it and save lots of beakers and only one turn later.

I also see you building arties after dynamite, that defeats the purpose of beeline. You need canons ready, preferably at front lines, upgrade same turn dynamite opens. Or go autocracy if you know it will come to mostly domination, take mobilization, and buy cheaper arties asap.

Also I see you sink cash into RAs but have no money to rush science buildings, not sure about that.

Your allies decimate Assyria but you don't follow up, need to take his cities, if you can't hold onto all of them sell some to the highest bidder.

Don't leave high culture opponents alive, wipe them out.

At the end hold your horses on GMs, buy them when tourism is a peak but save for later, while maxing positive modifiers. Won't get OB, at least send ITR, and diplomat, maybe convert to same religion. For Domstyle CVs autocracy works better as you can target culture with cult of personality and eliminate rivals easier.

You opened very well in my opinion, but then seemed to lose focus. I wish I was where you were at t100.

 

[dthompson32]

Much appreciated Maxym. Mid game play is a huge weakness for me and something I need to work on. I'll try this one again and pay attention to your suggestions.

 

[Maxym]

If you have turn 150 save that would work better as comparison, at least it will be apples to apples. You are in decent position by then, just leverage it better. Not sure how comfortable you are with pre arty warring, I owned most of Assyria with 3XBs (not on purpose, thats all had left after his knights slaughtered my CBs) and support, no siege, later got one cannon as gift but it never fired on a city. Look in my Assyria link for some medieval tactics.

Prepare happy for taking cities, and in late stages of war when you know you will go way into red when capturing, try to cap last 2-4 cities at once (get them all to zero and cap then so ur not fighting with red modifiers), sign peace and sell the ones you don't need. Or grab the cap and hold on to it for another turn or two, the next peace deal offered will be much sweeter.

And work on your diplo, you need DoFs. Get others involved in your wars, start other wars, gift things, move WC if you can't control it, propose resolutions that will get positive modifiers and sink one vote if you can afford to support potential friend's resolutions. AIs eat that stuff up.

 

[tommynt]

Quote:
Originally Posted by tommynt
I ll not end this one, i d proly end with a like turn 250 win or so but I hate the late game conquering ..

After thinking a bit I think I now know a way for a sub turn 200 win and am pissed I havent played this way


You mean domination and leave one civ? Or another idea? Just wondering....

ya - pretty sure that fastest way to win this d have been to kill assyria asap then beeline dynamite to kill all other civs - gift assyria cap to another civ who will bring assyria back into game as only survivor civ with very low culture.

The times from pdf and glory are very good allready - really good to balance fast teching and killing so well.

I didnt balance so well and some unlucky stuff hurt me badly - like assyria denying a very good obvervatory spot but settle at a crap spot 3 tiles away. And also that all good reli stuff been taken when I did get mine - even when doing everything to get it fast including to settle the +8 faith hill asap.

 

[Monthar]

gift assyria cap to another civ who will bring assyria back into game as only survivor civ with very low culture.

Only if that civ chooses to liberate the city. Most of the time they'll just keep it. So make sure whatever capital you give away or sell to prevent the domination victory is given or sold to whomever has the lowest culture.

 

[Maxym]

Only if that civ chooses to liberate the city. Most of the time they'll just keep it. So make sure whatever capital you give away or sell to prevent the domination victory is given or sold to whomever has the lowest culture.

You can game this to assure liberation, when they bump into happy ceiling, they will raze gifted cities, with cap since they can't raze I assume they will liberate. You can either time the gift, or swamp them with sold cities to ensure low happiness.

 

[dthompson32]

If you have turn 150 save that would work better as comparison, at least it will be apples to apples...

Turns out I had a turn 159 save hidden away on my Mac, waiting for the patch. I've set it aside, and I'll start from there to try out your suggestions. I really appreciate them!

 

[Arnold_T]

Wow, long game for me. I thought I wasn't going to be able to finish this before the deadline, but then saw that the deadline had been extended a few days, so I decided to grind it out to the end and get it submitted.

My lack of experience with BNW really showed on this game. I really need to bone up on the new concepts. At one point I was already four policies into Freedom when my happiness was in the red by 20+ (cuz everyone else was Order, I think?). Not sure what to do about it I made a rash decison to switch fron Freedom to Order. It was quick happiness fix, but probably not the best solution eh?

I had thought I would try a peaceful Culture Victory. I hadn't played Diety on BNW yet, so wasn't sure if this was possible or not, but I found the Diety AI pretty tame. I just used a couple of bribes early to get Assyria to attack Byzantium, and to get the Maya to attack India. Nobody ever declared on me after that.

It took me a long time, but eventually I realized that it was going to be impossible to generate enough tourism to overtake everyone's culture output before somebody built a spaceship, so I went to war. First a long war against Assyria, taking most of his cities, then a quicker war against the Maya, who had taken the Indian cap. I "liberated" Delhi, but kept it for myself. I didn't have to worry about the other western civs, since their culture output wasn't too high, but I had to take out Pedro's cap to speed things up and make sure I got the victory before Spain or the Maya completed their spaceships. I was surprised when Pedro nuked me (he actually nuked one of his own former cities). I'd never gotten to a point in a game when the AI has nukes before I guess
Pissed me off, but I refrained from the nuke tactics myself and took out his cap with XCom squads and Stealth Bombers. Cool units!

I'm looking forward to reading the other reports to learn some things. My SP path wasn't well thought out. I went Trad opener, then full Liberty with fast expo to eight cities, then Consulates, then finished Trad but opened Rationalism at some point. Got to build the Porcelain Tower since nobody else opened Rationlism. Probably should have worked in Aesthetics somehow. By the end of the game I had only three policies done in Aesthetics, even though I think had about 33 policies in total (inluding the four or five policies that I had wasted in Freedom).

One thing I don't get is how the Great Musicians have different values. At the end of the game I had a couple GMs saved and one was worth about 3000 tourism, and the other about 4000, but one that got spawned recently was only worth 100 tourism. Was it because he was a one-hit wonder?

Fun game, thanks Leif!