Typhoon of Steel - Version 3

[El_Tigre]

Maybe there are some other cities still in Chinese hands in the area, so that
they could just be renamed.

 

[eric_A]

I have started a thread for the new game:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=2574834#post2574834

 

[El_Tigre]

I tried to find some more data (especially maps) about the situation in China
1941, and here is what I found. I wasn't very successful: as always, the most
promising links are either down or lead to illegible sites in Chinese /
Japanese...

Some interesting maps can be found here:
Atlases

especially:
China 1941
China, Japanese advances during 1938 and 1939
China, Japanese occupation 1940

A WW2 map collection of the University of Texas:
UT Maps

Some tactical maps can be found here:
OnWar Maps

There is a chapter on the 2nd Sino-Chinese War here, halfway down the page:
Textbook

I stumbled upon an excellent site about the Dutch East Indies (maps, order of
battles,...), but it seems to be down ATM:
http://www.geocities.com/dutcheastindies/

 

[aksully]

Good post El T! I have some I found recently too and will post here tomorrow...or should we close out this one and go to the new thread. FYI, I have found two sources of potential troop placements that should (hopefully) include China. One I just got in the mail today and the other I'm waiting on. The one I'm waiting on is suppose to be THE source for air, land, and naval jap forces. I will share it when I get it, if anyone is interested.
Sully

 

[Misfit_travel]

The site El_Tigre mentioned is up again this morning. I took a look and it is a wealth of information. There is a map there showing a slightly different emphasis on cities and landings from the game map we are currently using. Definitely worth a look.

http://www.geocities.com/dutcheastindies/MapSWP.jpg

Judging from what I read there doesn't appear to be sufficient troops in all of British Borneo to justify the initial game placement of units. Maybe Eric_A would consider "splitting" the game start Kudat ANZAC infantry unit into 3 rifleman units. Then place a rifleman unit on the oil tile in British E Borneo, one of the oil tile N of Ketapang and the remaining unit in Kudat.

Its probably a more realistic initial order of battle.

The starting air units in Sibu also do not appear to be justified by the order of battle information. Although the Japanese did incur some naval damage, it was mainly from Dutch air units, not British ones. You may wish to relocate the Bomber to Singapore and eliminate the fighter.

The Dutch should probably get that eliminated British fighter, base it in Ketapang, to represent their limited ability to perform air bombardment on Japanese landing forces.

Cheers
Misfit

 

[Misfit_travel]

One other thought (for version 4.0) is to make all mountain terrain impassable. There are a few places on the map (like the continental US) where you would have to build some game start roads / mines, and one location in China (Wuwei) that would need some creative editing, but the remainder of the map would benefit significantly if mountains could not be entered by any troops.

It would force either a more historically realistic naval landing campaign, or a slower march-around-the-mountains campaign.

If you consider a redeploy of Dutch / British units based on new order of battle information, consider making the rifleman a 1-3 strength unit. Thus the starting British forces would be relatively weak, but they would be spread around in detachments that could wreck a lot of improvement damage before the superior strength Jap forces crush them.

Misfit

 

[aksully]

Here's a couple of Map sites;
This one on the surface looks excellent but some of the scans are not entirely sharp and don't have a click option to enlarge...http://www.onwar.com/maps/wwii/

An excellent site..I think you guys will find this very useful..
http://www.dean.usma.edu/history/web03/atlases/ww2 pacific/ww2 pacific war index.htm

Sully

 

[aksully]

Just a note that I'm good to go with the next game.
Sully

 

[El_Tigre]

*El_Tigre points to post #163*

 

[aksully]

Ahh El T ...Atlases!!! Didn't recognize it by the name. Great minds think alike!
Sully

 

[eric_A]

Files have been posted in post #2.

Here is the updated civilopedia file which goes in your:
conquests\scenarios\Tos_v3\text
folder.

 

[eric_A]

I tried to find some more data (especially maps) about the situation in China
1941, and here is what I found. I wasn't very successful: as always, the most
promising links are either down or lead to illegible sites in Chinese /
Japanese...

Some interesting maps can be found here:
Atlases

especially:
China 1941
China, Japanese advances during 1938 and 1939
China, Japanese occupation 1940

A WW2 map collection of the University of Texas:
UT Maps

Some tactical maps can be found here:
OnWar Maps

There is a chapter on the 2nd Sino-Chinese War here, halfway down the page:
Textbook

I stumbled upon an excellent site about the Dutch East Indies (maps, order of
battles,...), but it seems to be down ATM:
http://www.geocities.com/dutcheastindies/

Thanks, I hope to get a chance to look at this stuff soon!

 

[El_Tigre]

Two more links about the Sino-Japanese War:

Air War 1941

Japanese and Chinese Equipment

The two pages do not provide immediately useful information for the scenario,
but they give the reader a general idea of the situation.

Edit: Another link: Imperial Japanese Army

 

[El_Tigre]

Playing CW in the PBEM gave me some more ideas:

Civ Traits
CW is the only civ that is NOT industrious. It takes forever to build mines and
to complete the rail network in Australia. Why can even the Netherlands
improve terrain faster than the CW? Shouldn't the playing field be level for the
"big guys" in this matter?

How about those changes:

CH: Mil, Ind --------> Agr, Mil
US: Ind, Com ------> Ind, Com
Japan: Mil, Ind, Rel -> Ind, Mil
CW: Ind, Com ------> Ind, Com
NL: Ind, Com -------> Agr, Com

The major powers would be industrious, China and the NL agricultural. China
and Japan, both at war since 1937, are militaristic, the civs with free market
economies are commercial.

Coast watchers
Wouldn't outposts simulate coast watchers better than radar towers? No
combat bonus and a range of 1 tile would be more realistic IMHO.

Movement cost for coastal tiles
If you want to simulate reefs, you don't have to increase the movement cost
for coastal tiles across the board. You could create a landmark terrain "reef"
for coastal tiles and apply it selectively to the map. This way, ships aren't
penalized for entering e.g. San Francisco or Tokyo. BTW, you could create
such a landmark terrain for ocean, with a movement cost of 7, and surround
the Saratoga with it. As a result, she would appear even later in the war,
and the mini-map wouldn't look weird.

Seabees
Should this unit really have the same defense value as a regular Infantry? I
recommed lowering it to 4, and maybe decreasing its cost by 10 shields
or so.

Just my ideas to make a great scenario even better!

 

[eric_A]

All good ideas, except for the one about coastal tiles. I wanted to
slow down ships entering/leaving harbour. There is more than reefs
to consider. You also have minefields, overcrowded harbours, labour
shortages or strikes on the the docks, etc..

Apart from that I will look at putting the rest of those ideas in version
4.

I thought Seabees HAD a defense of 4, I will check that.

 

[Misfit_travel]

Any more tweaks for v3.x? El_Tigre and I have to start our Kamikaze tournament game shortly. Playing v3.05 Japan had too much trouble with China. Is there anything you would like us to playtest before we begin our tournament game?

Thanks
Misfit

 

[aksully]

I think there are still some OOB issues especially starting units for Japan.
I now have access to the complete Japanese starting OOB as of 7 Dec.

The guerilla IMHO still seems too strong a unit for WWII.

Would also suggest in a future version adding a float/recon plane for BBs and Jap CAs. ALong with adding one to all CVs.

You guys know my feelings about Pearl Harbor. Revise Oahu and put the US capital ships in a coastal square.

I didn't get a chance to play the US but it seems to me that the US is able to build CVs more quickly in 41-42 than was possible in reality. You could consider adding a tech advance for Advanced Carrier Construction and make it so that it can be completed mid 43. As it is expert players like Eric, Tony, and Martin can win/end the game by the end of 1942. As it stands...I doubt you'll get a game that lasts past that.

China's production seems unrealistic. It just didn't have the production infrastructure to build Marine, CEs, Fighters, Bombers, Seabees. They could on the other hand raise conscript infantry units. Could consider increasing China pop to allow those to be created in lieu of the advanced units listed above. And increase the number of workers available to the Chinese at the start.

These are just my observations. TOS is a great accomplishment Eric. One can only get nit picky when something is so well done. You should be very pleased with its creation and evolution. It has been a pleasure playing my first PBEM with all three of you! I hope you consider me for future gameplay...I'm always available!

Sully

 

[Misfit_travel]

China needs some combat upside or the Japanese player will just contain and ignore them. Removing their ability to build seebees and marines makes sense to me, but combat engineers need to stay or they'll never be able to take an offensive. The fighters and bombers are a product of "aid" from allies, so you could look at it from the point of view that if the US / CW had wanted to, they could have supplied a significant amount of aircraft aid to the Chinese. In this scenario that is represented by gold transfer and Chinese ability to build those units themselves.

As for US ability to build CV in '41-42, they are a couple of sub attacks away from being seriously screwed early in the game. I think it might not be historically accurate, but given the relative strength of other units (and the limited number of production cities the US has in this game) you have to let them build whatever they want.

Regards
Misfit

 

[aksully]

Points taken Misfit. Has anyone seen a float plane icon? I really think it should be added. Recon missions were the most important type flown. Would be worth considering adding a new unit too...Seaplane tender.
Sully

 

[eric_A]

TOS Version 3.07 Notes

Seabees:
China can no longer build Seabees.

Guerillas:
Removed stealth attack against artillery.

Map:
"Coastwatcher" radar towers in the Solomons and
New Guinea have been replaced with watchtowers.
Removed some roads in New Guinea

Units:
Yamato BB is now an elite unit.

Roads and railroads now take longer to build.