UK and the West Lothian Question – What’s the solution?

[Mega Tsunami]

Growing anger in England over the power that Scottish MPs wield at Westminster could destroy the 1998 devolution settlement, a powerful Commons committee said yesterday.
The report by the Labour-dominated Scottish affairs committee makes grim reading for Gordon Brown by highlighting how a majority of people in the United Kingdom now oppose a Scot becoming prime minister.
The MPs say that the West Lothian Question - the anomaly giving Scottish MPs a say over English laws but English MPs no similar rights where power has been devolved - is a time bomb that urgently needs to be defused. "It is a matter of concern to us that English discontent is becoming apparent," they said.
<snip>
The committee appeared to accept that a reduction of the power of Scottish MPs was the only way to go, noting four possible solutions: dissolution of the United Kingdom; English devolution; fewer Scottish MPs; only English votes on English laws. It did not express a preference.

This is a huge bugbear of mine and is likely to be a serious problem for Labour in the years to come.
Something needs to be done soon as the problem just won’t go away – indeed it will probably get worse if Brown takes over from Blair.
For those who don’t know, Brown is not just a typical dour Scot (a problem for him in itself), he is an MP representing Scottish constituents who have their own Scottish Parliament to pass many of their own laws.
In other words he will be passing laws and policies in England (indeed writing a Labour manifesto!) when he does not have to account to his constituents for his actions. (This happens at the moment of course but it will be much, much worse if he is PM).
It will be absolutely absurd if the PM of the UK has his own MSP (Member of the Scottish Parliament) passing laws on Brown's own constituents – laws he has no power over.

What with the huge rise in ‘Englishness’ as opposed to Britishness (as witnessed by the millions of English flags flying at the moment because of the World Cup) this is a very serious problem that won’t go away.

What do you think is the solution?

Full report:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/mai...FGGAVCBQWIV0?xml=/news/2006/06/20/nscot20.xml

 

[Mongoloid Cow]

Now seriously, who didn't see this coming?

IMO, the UK has to face up to the fact it needs to make some drastic electoral and constitutional reforms some time. I have no idea what the solution is because I'm not British, but of the four options the dissolution of the UK in its current state and replaced with something new seems the best choice. It's only a matter of time before you can substitute Wales for Scotland; there is Cornish agitation for their own parliament; the Northern Ireland issue; etc.; something is going to have to give sometime as Britishness takes a backseat.

 

[PrinceOfLeigh]

Seems simple to me, English Votes on English Laws. Having said that, it seems a moot point to have this when the Executive will shortly be headed by a Scot who will propose English Laws.

Why is there a need for a English Parliament representing English Interests, the UK Parliament has been doing that for centuries

 

[Sidhe]

Solution? We conquered them Scots and we want to keep it? My solution, same solution as the Jacobite rebellion. Ruthlessly crush it.

God grant that Marshal Wade,
May by thy Mighty aid,
Victory bring,
May he sedition hush,
And like a torrent rush,
Rebellious Scots to crush,
God save the King.

Seriously though, I see no reason to give Scotland a disolution or a soveriegn nation, are they self sustaining yet? Probably not.

 

[CurtSibling]

Solution? We conquered them Scots and we want to keep it? My solution, same solution as the Jacobite rebellion. Ruthlessly crush it.

God grant that Marshal Wade,
May by thy Mighty aid,
Victory bring,
May he sedition hush,
And like a torrent rush,
Rebellious Scots to crush,
God save the King.

You are welcome to try, you big English cissy!

I think Scots should vote on only Scottish matters or those items that will
affect Scotland. Not on purely Sassenach issues that do not concern us.

Seriously though, I see no reason to give Scotland a disolution or a soveriegn nation, are they self sustaining yet? Probably not.

Scotland will be independant when it feels ready, and not when England deems it.

Our politicians may take orders from you, but not the population.

*nationalist mode off*

 

[Sidhe]

You are welcome to try, you big English cissy!

I dont wear a skir... ah forget it, you take orders from us atm, lets have this discussion when you don't and not before

 

[Truronian]

Cornish MPs should vote on Cornish matters that will affect Cornwall

(I don't actually believe this )

 

[Samson]

I see the solution to many of the UKs problem in further devolution. Within the context of the EU (common currency and job market, some spreading of tax income) it makes so much sence. There is as much economic difference between England and Scotland (and Wales and NI) that there is between different EU nations.

 

[The Last Conformist]

Devolution for England seems the sensible course to me.

 

[Mega Tsunami]

Seems simple to me, English Votes on English Laws. Having said that, it seems a moot point to have this when the Executive will shortly be headed by a Scot who will propose English Laws.

Not just that, we would have a virtual Hung parliament for England at the moment and would almost definitely have that if we had an election tomorrow.
How silly and unworkable would it be if Labour did end up with a majority in the UK and a hung (or even minority?) in England. When we really were the ‘UK’ that wouldn’t have mattered; since devolution it certainly would.

The more I think about this the more serious it gets!

 

[Flak]

Seriously though, I see no reason to give Scotland a disolution or a soveriegn nation, are they self sustaining yet? Probably not.

This is hardly an argument against complete independence. How many recognized independent nations in the world are self-sustaining? Is the UK even self-sustaining? If yes, then why did they ever need a navy? I don't really think that's a requirement.

Personally I'd love to to see Northern Ireland and Scotland break off. Then they could go ahead and accept the Euro as their currency. This would make life a lot easier!

 

[PrinceOfLeigh]

Not just that, we would have a virtual Hung parliament for England at the moment and would almost definitely have that if we had an election tomorrow.
How silly and unworkable would it be if Labour did end up with a majority in the UK and a hung (or even minority?) in England. When we really were the ‘UK’ that wouldn’t have mattered; since devolution it certainly would.

The more I think about this the more serious it gets!

The next thing being a seperate House of Lords? Each only reviewing legislation proposed in Scotland, England ect? I can't see that there is an easy answer. Presumably why TB has left the topic well alone. Having said that, if I was Prime Minister I wouldn't trust Lord Falconer to come up with a solution either.

 

[bhsup]

Psst. Guys, look across the pond at your cousins for the answer. Constitutional federalism, States, and so forth. The State of England, the State of Scotland, the State of Wales, the State of Northern Ireland.

 

[7ronin]

Either it's a United Kingdom or it isn't. If it is then every citizen of its various components should have the right to aspire to the top job. Otherwise I suggest that the disaffected dress up as indians, dump some English tea in the harbor, and then when the redcoats show up, snipe at them from behind every tree and rock.

 

[Sidhe]

This is hardly an argument against complete independence. How many recognized independent nations in the world are self-sustaining? Is the UK even self-sustaining? If yes, then why did they ever need a navy? I don't really think that's a requirement.

Personally I'd love to to see Northern Ireland and Scotland break off. Then they could go ahead and accept the Euro as their currency. This would make life a lot easier!

To be honest I would rather see Scotland break off when it is able to stand on it's own two feet without subsidy from us, and yes England is self sufficient, actually 5th by GDP and 15th by GDP per capita of the richest nations.

 

[Mega Tsunami]

Either it's a United Kingdom or it isn't. If it is then every citizen of its various components should have the right to aspire to the top job. Otherwise I suggest that the disaffected dress up as indians, dump some English tea in the harbor, and then when the redcoats show up, snipe at them from behind every tree and rock.

Since devolution it is not a united Kingdom. It’s a dog’s breakfast constitutionally IMO.

Blair’s two main legacies when he finally goes: The Iraq war and the break up of the UK.

 

[Truronian]

The UK either needs to commit fully to the EU ) in my book), or devolve furthur ( in my book) IMO

Psst. Guys, look across the pond at your cousins for the answer. Constitutional federalism, States, and so forth. The State of England, the State of Scotland, the State of Wales, the State of Northern Ireland.

Not to mention the state of Cornwall

 

[Flak]

To be honest I would rather see Scotland break off when it is able to stand on it's own two feet without subsidy from us, and yes England is self sufficient, actually 5th by GDP and 15th by GDP per capita of the richest nations.

GDP is not a measure of a country's ability stand on its own feet. What do you think would happen to civilization on the island if the UK suddenly lost all of its imports? What do you think would happen to countries like: Japan, Canada, Lichtenstein, Israel, Taiwan, Andorra, Australia, if they lost all of their imports? How many of these countries do you think would be able to sustain their level of GDP without imports?

The ability of a country to maintain a measure of civilization and economy is truly a more accurate way to tell if a country can sustain itself. If Scotland was already an independent nation and had always been, do you really think they would really try to exist without substantial trade with their Southern neighbor?

 

[Mega Tsunami]

Here’s another ridiculous situation that might happen:
The Tories under Cameron wins a UK majority and he is the new PM. In Scotland they have a Labour majority and a socialist government in power for things like Health, Education, Transport etc. Meanwhile, the Tories (who would be deciding taxation policies for the whole of the UK) will be proceeding with capitalist rightwing (ish) policies for the UK. How the hell would that work? – It only ‘works’ now because we have Lefties in power in Scotland and the UK.

Take one more step:
Maybe the Tories would decide just how unfair it is on the English, Welsh and NIrish that an extra 20% (!) is paid by the UK government for each Scot (for health, education etc.) and decide to stop it. How would Scotland pursue their Socialistic policies then?

As I said: A dog’s breakfast.
My view FWIW, is that we have no option but to go for the dissolution of the UK.
I cannot see any workable way round the mess Blair has created. I personally believe the UK will be no more in about 15 to 20 years time.

 

[Sidhe]

GDP is not a measure of a country's ability stand on its own feet. What do you think would happen to civilization on the island if the UK suddenly lost all of its imports? What do you think would happen to countries like: Japan, Canada, Lichtenstein, Israel, Taiwan, Andorra, Australia, if they lost all of their imports? How many of these countries do you think would be able to sustain their level of GDP without imports?

The ability of a country to maintain a measure of civilization and economy is truly a more accurate way to tell if a country can sustain itself. If Scotland was already an independent nation and had always been, do you really think they would really try to exist without substantial trade with their Southern neighbor?

Whatever, all I'm asking is can they stand on their own two feet, ok ,taking into account all you just said? Well can they? If not we should not be prepared to subsidise them? I'm genuinely asking if Scotland would be self sufficient under it's own rule as I have no idea, I heard it wouldn't be somewhere, which is why I'm asking?

The reason the UK is 5th is because of all those imports and exports and the stock market. I really didn't mean to say in a communist sense at all? By self sufficient I mean able to function without huge cash injections from the UN or Europe or whatever.