Ultima Thule

Kyriakos

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The phrase Ultima Thule was created by Virgil, ancient Roman poet and author of the prominent Aenied epic poem. It had the meaning of some far-away land, beyond all human experience or knowledge. Utlimately it became a symbol of this notion of something which is very distant, or in some final distance.

The term Thule, though, is always attributed to a man who lived a number of Aeons before Virgil. That man was Pytheas, a notable geographer and explorer, a Greek from the city of Massalia (nowdays called Marseilles).

While Massalia started as a greek colony, founded by the Phocaeans, a people of the eponymous city in Ionia in the western coast of Asia minor (later destroyed by the Persians), it founded a number of notable colonies itself, in France Nikaia (today's Nice), Monaco (said to have had the original Greek name of Monoikos), Antibes (Antipolis) and Agde, and in Spain Emporion (now called Ampurias) and Hemeroscopion.

Pytheas, as mentioned by many later Greek and Roman geographers and other authors (such as Eratosthenes - of the 'sieve of Eratosthenes'- fellow Alexandrian Ptolemy the Astronomer, and Strabo, the famous early geographer from Pontus) was head of a small expedition to explore parts of Europe in the North. While only fragments of his work regarding that exploration survive, in works by others, it is most probable that the work of Pytheas was titled "Peri tou Okeanou" (of the Ocean, about the Ocean). Part of it is about his exploration of southern coastal Britain.
He also called a land far away from the larger British isle as "Thule".

The term Thule has also been used by the notable early Byzantine-era historian Procopius, who was known to have accompanied the general Bellisarios in his campaigns in the era of Justinian expansion of the Empire. Procopius refers to "Thule" and generally seems to place it in Sweden, according to some of the tribes he mentions are living there.

General belief is that Pytheas probably meant coastal southern Norway by the term "Thule". Later on the term, enhanced by Virgil's phrase, became a synonym for any distant and unknown territory. Sometimes in antique maps areas are titled as Ultima Thule, with images of monsters surrounding them :)

map_gallery.jpg
 
Was there a question in there I missed? Or is this an essay you wanted us to look at, or something like that?

I've alwsy been interested in Thule myself. I was under teh impression that it was now believed to be Iceland, not Norway? I know there are other interpretations - Greenland, North America, the Baltic coasts, Ireland, Atlantis - but Iceland seems to be the most accepted. Am I missing something?
 
Around here the pet theory is that Thule could have been Saaremaa, mostly because Pytheas claims that the inhabitants showed him a place "where the Sun went to sleep".

This might have been Kaali crater, whereas the name "Thule" could have been connected to the Finnic word tule ("(of) fire").
 
Was there a question in there I missed? Or is this an essay you wanted us to look at, or something like that?

I've alwsy been interested in Thule myself. I was under teh impression that it was now believed to be Iceland, not Norway? I know there are other interpretations - Greenland, North America, the Baltic coasts, Ireland, Atlantis - but Iceland seems to be the most accepted. Am I missing something?
Iceland is what I've seen when reading literature related to Antonios Diogenes' Ta hyper Thoulen apista.

Which is, incidentally, an awesome story, even though none of it actually survives and all we have is a plot summary from Photios' Bibliotheke. It has vampires, evil Egyptian priests, Alexander the Great, an insane travelogue that leads characters all over the world, and a set of nested stories that put's Inception's dreams-within-dreams to shame.
 
Was there a question in there I missed? Or is this an essay you wanted us to look at, or something like that?

I've alwsy been interested in Thule myself. I was under teh impression that it was now believed to be Iceland, not Norway? I know there are other interpretations - Greenland, North America, the Baltic coasts, Ireland, Atlantis - but Iceland seems to be the most accepted. Am I missing something?

Hi :)

It was just a small article i wrote, which i thought might be of some interest.

From what i read there are still many theories about where Thule was. Iceland is one of them, Norway is often mentioned too.

@Dachs: very interesting, i will surely check out that reference :) Sounds a bit like "A True Story" (Αληθής Ιστορία) by Lucian (Lucianos of Samosata)
 
Iceland is what I've seen when reading literature related to Antonios Diogenes' Ta hyper Thoulen apista.

Which is, incidentally, an awesome story, even though none of it actually survives and all we have is a plot summary from Photios' Bibliotheke. It has vampires, evil Egyptian priests, Alexander the Great, an insane travelogue that leads characters all over the world, and a set of nested stories that put's Inception's dreams-within-dreams to shame.
"This movie has a vampire and an explosion!"

Still, sounds pretty damn good. The summary is probably the equivalent to most movie trailers though; it shows you all the good stuff, but if you actually go see it it's just Robert Downey Jr, fighting Gandhi.
 
Hi :)

It was just a small article i wrote, which i thought might be of some interest.
Ah, no problem. Probably should have mentioned that though in the OP, just to avoid confused dim-wits like myself knuckle-dragging through the thread. What were your sources?
 
What were your sources?

Mostly some articles about Pytheas (one from wiki is this one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pytheas) and then some earlier bits and pieces of knowledge i saw in various places (like the names of prominent later greeks and romans who refer to Pytheas and his journey, and the colonies of Massalia).

I think i stumbled on the information that Virgil created the Ultima Thule phrase, in his work "Georgika" by chance, in one of those articles.
 
@Dachs: very interesting, i will surely check out that reference :) Sounds a bit like "A True Story" (Αληθής Ιστορία) by Lucian (Lucianos of Samosata)
Loukianos was awesome, and his Alethes historia is easily my favorite of the classical novels. But it's not quite the same thing. Loukianos was a satirist, and his stories aimed to make fun of the romance-adventure genre (at least, going by the introduction he wrote). So he deliberately went even further over the top than anything any of the actual authors wrote, by sending his character into space and to the Isle of the Blessed, inadvertently creating the first example of science fiction in the process. Antonios was - probably - playing everything straight. Also, his story was something like 24 super-long books with an incredibly complex narration, whereas Loukianos' narration was simple and straightforward and only required 2 books.
"This movie has a vampire and an explosion!"

Still, sounds pretty damn good. The summary is probably the equivalent to most movie trailers though; it shows you all the good stuff, but if you actually go see it it's just Robert Downey Jr, fighting Gandhi.
*shrug*

Most classical novels were fundamentally, formula fiction. The most interesting part about them was the way in which the author implemented the formula, and most of the ones that survive tended to do this quite ably. Achilles Tatios, for instance, did the unthinkable (back when it was still unthinkable) and killed off his heroine three separate times. Heliodoros' Aithiopika started off with a memorable nested story that was highly regarded both in modernity and in antiquity - Michael Psellos claimed that the tale, which was one of the best he'd ever read, reminded him of a coiled snake - that set the hook with a good mystery and slowly reeled the reader in.

So the argument goes that Antonios' story, if it was so highly regarded by the same people who liked the Aithiopika, Leukippe [and Kleitophon], Chaireias and Kallirhoe, and so on, Antonios' execution must have been just as good; it merely failed to survive because of its length. And certainly, the basic outlines of the twisty plot that do survive via Photios seem interesting enough.

But I used to poke at my professor by suggesting more or less the same thing to him - "how do we know that "The Wonders Beyond Thule" was any good?" - so I totally know where you're coming from. :p

Also, Iron Man 3 was awesome, hater.
 
Around here the pet theory is that Thule could have been Saaremaa, mostly because Pytheas claims that the inhabitants showed him a place "where the Sun went to sleep".

This might have been Kaali crater, whereas the name "Thule" could have been connected to the Finnic word tule ("(of) fire").

Thanks Yeekim :)

When did the Baltic-Finnic (sorry if that is not the term which should be used here) people first reach the area now known as Estonia, though? (particularly its coastal part). I tried searching for that info but it seems it is in contention just at what age they arrived. Also, is the term "Tule" an original Uralic-language word, or considered as Indo-European (then passed on to the Finnic language)?
 
Thanks Yeekim :)

When did the Baltic-Finnic (sorry if that is not the term which should be used here) people first reach the area now known as Estonia, though? (particularly its coastal part). I tried searching for that info but it seems it is in contention just at what age they arrived. Also, is the term "Tule" an original Uralic-language word, or considered as Indo-European (then passed on to the Finnic language)?
The area became ice-free sometime around ~10,000 BC and first human settlements are dated from ~9000 BC. E.g. this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pulli_settlement.

As to when exactly the Baltic Finns arrived, there is no clear agreement:
Until the early 1980s, the arrival of Finnic peoples, the ancestors of the Estonians, Finns, and Livonians on the shores of the Baltic sea around 3000 BC, was associated with the Comb Ceramic Culture[14] However, such a linking of archaeologically defined cultural entities with linguistic ones cannot be proven and it has been suggested that the increase of settlement finds in the period is more likely to have been associated with an economic boom related to the warming of climate. Some researchers have even argued that a form of Uralic languages may have been spoken in Estonia and Finland since the end of the last glaciation.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltic_Finns
However, they sure were here well before 4th century BC.
As to the etymology of "tuli" (fire), I couldn't swear right now - I'd have to look it up from books I currently don't own. Though I do know it is the same in both Estonian and Finnish. On the other hand, I don't know of any (Indo-European or other) languages with similar word.

Saaremaa has also been connected to the "Iron-wood" mentioned in the poetic Edda:
The giantess old in Ironwood sat,
In the east, and bore the brood of Fenrir;
Among these one in monster's guise
Was soon to steal the sun from the sky.

The meteorite supposedly weighed around 20-80t at the moment of impact with ground and composed mostly of iron - of which only tiny pieces have been found. Locals probably got a pretty good business going selling that stuff off.
 
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