Umm, Jaguar warriors?`This has to be a bug right?

[Dracleath]

I just started a game as the aztecs, and as I was aggressive I was doing my usual early game military strat of going to swordsmen, double promoting them with theocracy and vassalage, and taking over the civ next to me to get some space, when I noticed my jaguars getting slaughtered compared to what my swordsmen usually do... They were losing to archers in bombarded down cities.

Then I noticed:

Jaguar

5 strength
+10% city attack
+25% jungle and forest defense
40 hammers

vs

Swordsman

6 strength
+10% city attack
40 hammers
requires iron

vs

Praetorians

8 strength
40 hammers
requires iron




So... um....

The aztecs are like the only civ with a unique unit that's actually a penalty? What?

Being able to skip iron is ok and all but it's only really come up for me in one game and isn't much of a bonus (see war elephants, civ 3).

If I could build regular swordsmen it would be a bit better but even then aztecs are the only civ without a UU.

 

[warpstorm]

It is intentional.

 

[Dracleath]

Ok I'll bite.


Why?

 

[Knightlancer]

lure some one into the jungle, and watch.

 

[spincrus]

I think they should've been 6 strength and the jungle/forest defense bonus replacing the city attack bonus, and again no iron needed, 30 hammers.

Then, the unit would have the innate advantage in jungles/forests, as strong as a normal swordsman, and no iron requisite, 30 hammers, but no city attack bonus to prevent hoarding. I think -10 hammers + no iron req is very good for that unit, not to mention an innate jungle/forest ability (something I rarely upgrade to, but becomes very handy, and you can always double-upgrade to city raider + %10 strength).

But I've noticed that resources are quite abundant in Civ4 and I didn't have a resource problem yet. So I don't know if the "no iron required" thing would really be that much of an advantage.

 

[Perfxion]

You don't need iron, since it wasn't much in the Meso American lands, thus it makes sense. Iron is much stronger than bronze and stone. Thus any units using these to fight iron are going to lose.

 

[spincrus]

Actually on a second thought, you can always double upgrade this unit as is and have an awesome guerilla unit; maybe not as good to hoard and attack cities (but still quite effective) but very good defenders and attackers on land.

 

[spincrus]

You don't need iron, since it wasn't much in the Meso American lands, thus it makes sense. Iron is much stronger than bronze and stone. Thus any units using these to fight iron are going to lose.

True, and I wouldn't want to fight with a wooden stick layered with obsidian.

Makes sense. But maybe 30 hammers? Would that cause hoarding? I need to playtest Aztecs.

 

[Dracleath]

You can't give jaguars guerilla bonuses.

You can give them woodsman 2, but this takes 2 promotions and you can do that for a normal swordsman too so the aztec still just ends up being the same in the end:


Jaguar:

With woodsman 2:

5 str
+75% defense in forests, jungles
2 move in forests, jungles

Real strength on defense in jungles+forests: 8.75

Swordsman:

6 str

+ 50% defense in jungles and forests
2 move in jungles and forests

Real strength on defense in jungles and forests - 9

Pretorian with woodsman 2:

8 str

+50% defense in jungles and forests

2 move in jungles in forests

Real strength in jungles and forests: 12


Edit: Oops was looking at the wrong set of numbers... Anyway it helps my point more so whatever.

 

[Dida]

hoarding isn't all that bad. it is a viable strategy.

 

[Alphidius]

The tradeoff is they don't require iron!!!
That's the main deal!!
Imagine this:

2 Civs at war, Aztecs & Romans.
1 Roman Preatorian pillages the ONLY Iron mine of Aztec.
Montezuma: Let them pillage! We have mighty Jaguar Warriors!! Unleashed them!!
1 Jaguar Warrior strolls over to the ONLY Iron mine of Rome & pillages it.
*Screams are heard*
Messanger to Caesar: Rome is doomed, Caesar!!! We can no longer produce Preatorians!!
Caesar: My, my... Not expecting this from Montezuma... Interesting...

But I digress
Without Iron forget about Swordmen. This case, Rome will need to fall back on producing Archers or Spearmen and is on the defensive. If the Aztecs can hold out the Iron source and mob them with enough Jaguar Warriors, the result is predictable.

My 2 cents

 

[Craterus22]

But I digress
Without Iron forget about Swordmen. This case, Rome will need to fall back on producing Archers or Spearmen and is on the defensive. If the Aztecs can hold out the Iron source and mob them with enough Jaguar Warriors, the result is predictable.

My 2 cents

Except that Rome's standing army should detroy Aztecs before they NEED to make more units... and do the Aztecs get territory beneficial to thier units to be more prevelant during startup (or world generation)?

 

[Ozymandous]

Actually on a second thought, you can always double upgrade this unit as is and have an awesome guerilla unit; maybe not as good to hoard and attack cities (but still quite effective) but very good defenders and attackers on land.

Ah... Isn't one of the upgrades you can choose to be 20% stronger vs cities and another upgrade 20%+ vs. melee or archer units? Would seem to me that if those were chosen the JW would be pretty handy indeed.

That's assuming barracks and Theocracy (or is it Vassalage) as the civic, where any military unit produced has auto experience.

 

[Alphidius]

Except that Rome's standing army should detroy Aztecs before they NEED to make more units... and do the Aztecs get territory beneficial to thier units to be more prevelant during startup (or world generation)?

Actually, it really depends on lots of factors.

If like what you said Rome's standing army should destroy the Aztecs, this is assuming that Rome has an Iron source, has produce much Preatorian units and is ready for war.

Now what I'm assuming is if both were on an equal standing. Number of cities, units etc... prior to discovery of Iron Working. And after discovering it, again assuming that both have discovered it at the same time, the Aztecs will beat Rome to produce their 'swordmen' aka Jaguar Warriors unit first. Period. Now this is still assuming Rome has the techs to build the necessary infrastructure like The Wheel for road.

That said, Rome's traits does not enhance it's units while Aztecs are Aggressive that gives free promotion for Melee units to boot. Now with Barracks, which costs cheaper for them too, their units start with quite alot of experince points and if they are producing Jaguar Warriors....
It suddenly feels like Zergling rush to me!!

This is of course doing alot of assuming
I say, to each his own. There are pros and cons but they're balanced out quite well here...
Peace! My 2 cents

 

[iluminatisubeo]

so the Jauar warrior no longer replaces the warrior?

 

[warpstorm]

I guess you haven't gotten a map where you didn't have iron yet. The game I just finished there was no Iron or Copper anywhere near my lands. I had to make do with Archers and Horse Archers till the Mongol Horde came knocking with Knights at which point I died.

 

[Dracleath]

Ah... Isn't one of the upgrades you can choose to be 20% stronger vs cities and another upgrade 20%+ vs. melee or archer units? Would seem to me that if those were chosen the JW would be pretty handy indeed.

That's assuming barracks and Theocracy (or is it Vassalage) as the civic, where any military unit produced has auto experience.

That said, Rome's traits does not enhance it's units while Aztecs are Aggressive that gives free promotion for Melee units to boot. Now with Barracks, which costs cheaper for them too, their units start with quite alot of experince points and if they are producing Jaguar Warriors....
It suddenly feels like Zergling rush to me!!

Yes.

BUT

Praets can get those promotions too

Also any aggressive civ can with vassalage or theo take both those upgrades off the bat, not just aztecs, and no other aggressive civ is penalized with a unit inferior to the one it replaces.

Alex kublai or genghis can not only rush raider/cover swordsman, but their swordsmen are clearly superior to the jaguars once they are made.



Now you may say "yeah but you need a source of iron to be superior to jaguars".


But again, looking at the numbers this doesn't hold up.

Lets take a look at jaguars vs other early age normal units:

Jaguar

5 strength
+10% city attack
+25% jungle and forest defense
40 hammers (8 hammers/strength unit)
availible at Iron working
uses swordsman promotion list

Swordsman

6 strength
+10% city attack
40 hammers ( 6.6 hammers/strength unit)
requires iron
availible at Iron working

Axeman
5 strength
+50% against melee units
35 hammers ( 7 hammers/strength unit)
requires copper
availible at Bronze working
uses swordsman promotion list

War Elephant
8 strength
+50% against mounted units
doesn't get defensive bonuses
60 hammers (this seems like a disadvantage, but compare 5 strength at 40 = 8 hammers per strength unit vs 8 strength at 60 = 7.5 hammers per strength unit. Still more cost effective than the jaguar)
requires ivory
availible at construction (comparatively iron working is 3 techs in, construction 4)
uses mounted promotion list (can't get city raider but can get ignore first strike and withdraw from combat, both excellent for attacking cities)


Horse Archer
6 strength
+50% vs catapults
Immune to first strike
50 hammers ( 8.3 hammers per strength unit, only one in the list so far more expensive than the jaguar)
availible at horseback riding
uses mounted promotion list



I'd argue all these units aside from perhaps horse archer are better units for attacking cities (even the axeman is equivalent in cost effectiveness fighting archers and superior if your enemy has any melee defenders at all), and even the horse archer isn't that far behind and is much better at attacking units in the field.


So now the jaguar is more useful than the alternatives for the intended role of the swordsman (city raider and generalist combat unit), the unit it replaces if:

You don't have iron.
You don't have horses.
You don't have copper.
You don't have ivory.
You don't have a civilization nearby with extra iron.
you don't have a civilization nearby with extra copper.
you don't have a civlilization nearby with extra horses.
you don't have a civilization nearby with extra ivory.



That's an awful lot of ifs.

 

[Dracleath]

I guess you haven't gotten a map where you didn't have iron yet. The game I just finished there was no Iron or Copper anywhere near my lands. I had to make do with Archers and Horse Archers till the Mongol Horde came knocking with Knights at which point I died.

Sorry but if you couldn't do it with horse archers jaguars weren't exactly going to overrun your opponents either, see above.

 

[warpstorm]

Horse Archers get no defense bonus. They make lousy city defenders.

 

[warpstorm]

The other issue is that people think UU means Uber-Unit. It doesn't, and it shouldn't. I wish more of the UUs were toned down so the they were different, not across the board better. I would rather that the Praet be nerfed than the Jag improved.