Unexpected great people

[archeide]

Hello all,

It's my first BTS game (I played several vanilla Civ 4 games before), i thought i understood the great people geneation mechanism, but i'm facing a real mystery.

I have a city with the following probabilities for the next great people (1 turn before creating):
great prophet : 20%
great merchant : 49%
great engineer: 31%

But in the next turn, whatever i try, I always get a great scientist !
I don't understand why, because the probability should be 0%. I checked there is no generation of scientist great people. No scientists in the city, no wonder generating scientist probability, etc.

Is there something i don't understand or a hidden rule (limit of great merchants created in the world ?) that prevent me to get this great merchant i really really need so much ?

Thanks

 

[Quotey]

Can you post a save? That is strange.

Though it might not work for any of us depending on how the RNG works.

 

[nbcman]

You didn't just research Physics did you? If you were 1st to Physics you would have received a great scientist. Otherwise I don't know how you could have gotten the Great Scientist.

Welcome to CFC

 

[archeide]

Can you post a save? That is strange.

Though it might not work for any of us depending on how the RNG works.

Thanks for your answer.
It's in the Roman city Vienne. It's the turn just before it creates the great people.

 

[archeide]

You didn't just research Physics did you? If you were 1st to Physics you would have received a great scientist. Otherwise I don't know how you could have gotten the Great Scientist.

Welcome to CFC

Thanks

No, it's later in the game. No new technology in this turn, and the great people counter returns to 0 in the city. So i assume it's the great people generated by this city.

But I always get Maxwell.

A great scientist indeed, but i would prefer a great merchant for my new food company.

 

[DanF5771]

Wow, this is quite interesting. I checked your save and asked for the GPUnitProgress in Vienna with Python and it showed 6 for GreatScientists, which means you had 2 Scientists assigned at one time during the last GP generation turns. The individual numbers for GPUnitProgress determine the chances for the birth of the respective GPs. GPUnitProgress increases by GPUnitRate which does not take any modifiers into account (like Pacifism, National Epic, GA, ...). The chance for a GS is 0.42%, that is too low to be displayed (I think min 1%). In 1896 AD the total GPUnitProgress is 1418, so the RNG rolls numbers between 0...1417. Since Mr. Maxwell is born in 1896 the RNG must have rolled a number between 262...267. There is no way to force the birth of a GreatMerchant for that roll, but you can get a GreatPriest or a GreatArtist instead, by assigning 2 Priests / Artists instead of 2 Merchants so that the random number (262...267) falls into their lucky roll interval.

The interesting part is that the individual GPUnitProgresses are reset to zero at the birth of a GP, which allows neutral GPP overflow. I tested this in your game, went into WB erased all World Wonders and National Wonders in Vienna, switched to Caste System and assigned 17 Scientists (+ 1 free Engineer from Industrial Park). In 1896 Maxwell is born and Vienna has 88 neutral GPPs mainly from the plethora of Scientists. After getting rid of all Scientists plus assigning the free Specialist from the Statue of Liberty to an Engineer too and pressing <End Turn> Vienna has 100 GPPs in 1898 with a chance for a GE of 100%--EXPLOIT!!!

 

[archeide]

Wow,this is really amazing stuff!
Thank you very much DanF5771.
Too bad i can't get a merchant... but i'm happy to understand that all is logical, no bug, it's simply bad luck.

If i understand you, the roll number was generated long time and go, and what change at each turn is the different ranges of luck for each type of great people.

So the only chance i have to take a merchant, is to return back long before, so i control i never had a scientist working....

Too long! Sushis will wait...

 

[DanF5771]

Glad I could be helpful, but I learned a lot too. The random number (262..267) is generated between your turns (1894-1896), not long ago. But it will always be the same after reloading as it will always use the same seed (for different numbers, check the option "New Random Seed on Reload" when starting a new custom game, but this is borderline to cheating...). What you could do, is use up this particular seed for something else, that is subject to "randomness" (like Combats, certain diplo interactions) so that the GP-birth is rolled for a new, different seed which might result in a random number 268...971 --> this will give you a Great Merchant.

Edit: I used one of your Privateers to kill a Caravel near Heidelber to get a new seed for the GP-birth roll. Now you get a Great Prophet in Vienna, without changing anything in the city itself at all. So you might want to try several things to get your Sushi (but don't do such stuff in any public games ).

 

[Bad Brett]

The interesting part is that the individual GPUnitProgresses are reset to zero at the birth of a GP, which allows neutral GPP overflow. I tested this in your game, went into WB erased all World Wonders and National Wonders in Vienna, switched to Caste System and assigned 17 Scientists (+ 1 free Engineer from Industrial Park). In 1896 Maxwell is born and Vienna has 88 neutral GPPs mainly from the plethora of Scientists. After getting rid of all Scientists plus assigning the free Specialist from the Statue of Liberty to an Engineer too and pressing <End Turn> Vienna has 100 GPPs in 1898 with a chance for a GE of 100%--EXPLOIT!!!

Wow, thanks for the info. I've got to try this with a philosophical leader with pacifism and caste system. You could easily make your GP farm create a few quick engineers this way.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Hmmm, the only way I can imagine an exploit with neutral GPP overflow is via a heavy dose of caste scientists on the first GP in a city with an engineer wonder. Then, BAM scientists off after the overflow, 5 GE points on. Even so, you can only overflow so much, and obviously the trick won't apply to the first GP. Probably a good way for PHI to whore out a quick choice 2nd GP if they want to delay the first one until caste, but it's still hardly sounding optimal.