Unit strengths/cost: realistic

[Dale]

Unit stats are 95% what Chamboozer listed at the start of this thread. Some alterations though (some listed above, some not).

 

[Omathaar]

The changes are for game balance mostly?

 

[Dale]

Yes. The strength of neutral units (too high) was part of the passive AI problem. IE: Germany & USSR didn't consider their units strong enough to take Polish cities.

 

[Fagan]

Yes. The strength of neutral units (too high) was part of the passive AI problem. IE: Germany & USSR didn't consider their units strong enough to take Polish cities.

Err, a suggestion, before to change strength of default units, try see if other aren't enough to fix those problems. For planes result are a bit strange as defaults are stronger than for some country but overall the new stronger defaults are good by giving better resistance to countries with default.

About that I read texts about Finland during ww2, they have been rather amazing. I think they need some special units to reflect a little their performances.

It's weird that Poland consider their units strong enough to take USSR or German city and not the reverse. Logically the problem should be mainly elsewhere, most probably linked to disbanding problem.

 

[Fagan]

Thanks for you answers.

1. Although I can't remember or check what Dale had it as in the game, the suggestions I put up had the Crusader as being slightly weaker than the Panzer IV, but also getting an antiarmor bonus, making them closer to even.

Your values : Crusader III Tank; str 22, moves 4.

Ok Dale has increased their value to 24 but the problem here is the moves 4 that makes an extremely big difference.

You didn't answer to justify this speed which is the real problem for a non light tank.

2. Crusaders had wide treads, keeping them from getting bogged down in the desert.

And that justify a desert attack bonus? Well you answer me but I don't feel your argument valid, I definitely feel you miss something and that it's German units that should get some desert bonus.

Additionally Crusaders had a big weakness that German exploited very well in desert Crusader was weak when opposed to Artillery/Anti-tank. German tanks was attracting Crusaders and was going back to a range or Artillery/Anti-tank, against those the Crusaders was lost because they couldn't support their hits and had much closer ranges.

3. Again I can't remember what Dale has it set to, but for me their Infantry started out relatively even to Germany's then ended slightly weaker.

Dale followed your values : Commonwealth Improved Infantry; str 20 , moves 3 , cost 330.

The speed 3 is enough to make them much better than German units (that you gave them same str and higher cost but speed 2 as most improved infantry).

Again you didn't answered about the special speed given which is the main problem.

The second problem is that you didn't consider leader characteristics that make those units better than German units.

I think that moves 2 and str 18 would really be better.

4. Perhaps, I wasn't 100% sure whether it would work well or not.

Well moves 4 is certainly a first part of the problem of AI because it forces it to consider possible this extreme penetration. Moves 5 is just too much.

5. Italian Infantry (again, not sure what Dale has) are considerably weak in my suggestions.

Dale followed your suggestion: Italian Improved Infantry; str 17 , move 2 , cost 300 , +25% vs. Siege Units, +15% City Defense

Well 17 is already quite strong but there's also the +15 city defense. 17 is strong because 15 is the default, for example Japan has str 15 (ok but moves 3 which is again a detail I don't understand). Russian has srt 15.

I think that Italy shouldn't have more than str 15 for improved infantry. That said if there's a balance problem it's not a real problem.

6. Means its more important to establish a whole line of units, rather than just defending one square. Obviously the AI can't do this so I see your point.

Err are you sure? Even with older cultural system I don't see that working well, it seems to me just offering units to opponent. With new cultural system that sort of tactic will just be an error to offer more culture control to opponent.

Also by replaying Desert War I realized how less moves is working well, that gives more sense to a tactic element that the AI was managing well, road protection and road destruction.

I also realize that now some units are faster on roads than on railroads!! The units with moves 4 or more.

I should insist that overall Chamboozer you did a dam good job with those new units.

 

[Chamboozer]

Thanks for you answers.


Your values : Crusader III Tank; str 22, moves 4.

Ok Dale has increased their value to 24 but the problem here is the moves 4 that makes an extremely big difference.

You didn't answer to justify this speed which is the real problem for a non light tank.

And that justify a desert attack bonus? Well you answer me but I don't feel your argument valid, I definitely feel you miss something and that it's German units that should get some desert bonus.

Additionally Crusaders had a big weakness that German exploited very well in desert Crusader was weak when opposed to Artillery/Anti-tank. German tanks was attracting Crusaders and was going back to a range or Artillery/Anti-tank, against those the Crusaders was lost because they couldn't support their hits and had much closer ranges.


Dale followed your values : Commonwealth Improved Infantry; str 20 , moves 3 , cost 330.

The speed 3 is enough to make them much better than German units (that you gave them same str and higher cost but speed 2 as most improved infantry).

Again you didn't answered about the special speed given which is the main problem.

The second problem is that you didn't consider leader characteristics that make those units better than German units.

I think that moves 2 and str 18 would really be better.


Well moves 4 is certainly a first part of the problem of AI because it forces it to consider possible this extreme penetration. Moves 5 is just too much.


Dale followed your suggestion: Italian Improved Infantry; str 17 , move 2 , cost 300 , +25% vs. Siege Units, +15% City Defense

Well 17 is already quite strong but there's also the +15 city defense. 17 is strong because 15 is the default, for example Japan has str 15 (ok but moves 3 which is again a detail I don't understand). Russian has srt 15.

I think that Italy shouldn't have more than str 15 for improved infantry. That said if there's a balance problem it's not a real problem.


Err are you sure? Even with older cultural system I don't see that working well, it seems to me just offering units to opponent. With new cultural system that sort of tactic will just be an error to offer more culture control to opponent.

Also by replaying Desert War I realized how less moves is working well, that gives more sense to a tactic element that the AI was managing well, road protection and road destruction.

I also realize that now some units are faster on roads than on railroads!! The units with moves 4 or more.

I should insist that overall Chamboozer you did a dam good job with those new units.

I based the speed of the units on their historical maximum offroad speed withe every 10km/h equaling 1 movement, and only changed things in small cases (I didn't let it go past 5 movement points)

As for British units, you're right, I hadn't considered the leader bonuses.

17 strength for improved is weaker than every other nation, and Japan's strength was lowered after Dale's testing because the Chinese kept getting wiped off the map.

Japanese infantry were historically very light units. They didn't tend to carry around very much heavy equipment, Thus the movement bonus.

Want to use Rommel's desert war strategy? Keep some AT guns in your stack. They're actually usefull in this version

Russian infantry remain relatively weak in the beggining of the game to reprisent the purges, but they come back up pretty well for advanced infantry.

 

[Fagan]

I based the speed of the units on their historical maximum offroad speed withe every 10km/h equaling 1 movement, and only changed things in small cases (I didn't let it go past 5 movement points)

Offroad speed, ok but then I'd be curious to know your sources. For Crusader III I saw something like 24km/h offroad and 21km/h for Panzer IV of 1940.

For Crusader III here a link among other :
http://www.onwar.com/tanks/uk/data/crusader3.htm

And if it's offroad speed then I doubt M2 had 50km/h and more. But cannot put my hand on data with onroad/offroad for the M2.

As for British units, you're right, I hadn't considered the leader bonuses.

Well.

17 strength for improved is weaker than every other nation, and Japan's strength was lowered after Dale's testing because the Chinese kept getting wiped off the map.

Well, default is 15 (but Dale recently lower it to 10), USSR is 15, USA is 15, Japan is 15 even if you explained another reason, China is 10, there's German and British with 20 and French with 19 Otherwise Italian Infantry is the fourth more powerful of the world. Well ok 17.

Japanese infantry were historically very light units. They didn't tend to carry around very much heavy equipment, Thus the movement bonus.

Ok I didn't knew that, for that's also a reason they get then only 15. The best of the best would be to have for each unit some explanation that let understand the reason of its characteristics.

Want to use Rommel's desert war strategy? Keep some AT guns in your stack. They're actually useful in this version

Well not really. TD are killing Tanks in the game, I find them too powerful. I read that during the Battle of France British Matilda char proved very well because German anti tank as unable to hit them seriously (later German used stronger AT).

Russian infantry remain relatively weak in the beggining of the game to reprisent the purges, but they come back up pretty well for advanced infantry.

Well it's dreaming to believe be able to mimic USSR first lost then come back in a game like civ4, only heavy scripting could hope attempt something. That said I'm not hurt of USSR advanced at 15 with some City defense bonus (I would have give a bit more) but by Italy at 17. But ok that's a detail and roughly ok like this.

Let me bet, you father is British and your mother Italian isn't it?

EDIT: Well sorry I wrote M4 when it was about M2, I edit the post to correct it.

EDIT2: So I read many texts about the M4 and well it wasn't a very good tank and perform well only because large outnumbering and ally air control plus better supplying. In fact M4 should be weaker but with low production cost and free promotion of auto repair when walking because it was probably the easiest to repair. Something like :
Moves 3, Str 20, Cost 300, Free promotion auto repair walking, Free promotion +10% against Siege Weapons.

 

[Dale]

*bump *

 

[Akaoz]

o.0 Are you going to be patching RtW again Dale? Oh, and can someone point me in the direction of a thread that explains the combat system in RtW?