Units must NOT fully recover

[Guagle]

You are correct that replacement costs should also be factored into maintenance. It certainly would be a disincentive to maintain unecessarily large militaries because of production and food loss. Unfortunately the issue of how to factor in hammer support has to be solved. This kind of representation would be more interesting than the rather abstract and insignificant maintenance and reinforcement system that currently exists.

If i remember correctly this is how things worked in Civ 2, with cities paying maintenance for units above their support limit. In my opinion Civ3's way of doing it was much better.

 

[sir_schwick]

I'm not suggesting we handle hammer support city by city, but I am not sure how to do it otherwise. I am merely suggesting that part of regular maintenance cost is industrial support.

 

[Pacifist]

@Fachy
I've come up with a game concept
I'd like to hear what you think

Symbols:
{_} Health Container
{o} Filled/Restored Health Container
{x} Depleted Health Container (health points can be restored)
{u} Unrecoverable Health Container (health points cannot be restored on the battlefield)

Civ3 health bar
Unit Level ... Health
C ............ {_}{_} concript
R ............ {_}{_}{_} regular
V ............ {_}{_}{_}{_} veteran
E ............ {_}{_}{_}{_}{_} elite

New Concept:
Any surviving unit losing ...

• 1 point of health by the END of the turn receives a "total" of 1 {u} in its next turn
• 2 points of health by the END of the turn receives a "total" of 2 {u} in its next turn
• 3 or more points of health by the END of the turn receives a "total" of 3 {u} in its next turn

Each existing {u} a unit has counts towards the "total"
ONE {u} replaces ONE {x}
A unit stationed in a city can restore ONE {u} into ONE {o} per turn. A barracks completely restores all {u} into {o} in ONE turn. Each {u} to be restored requires ONE production (shield) from the city (automatically deducted from the city during the recovery process). This is to simulate troop replacements, equipment repairs, etc.

With this, units CANNOT fully recover in the battlefield

Examples (using a veteran unit)

-1a-
V {o}{o}{o}{o} --before combat
V {o}{o}{o}{x} --after offensive combat & end turn
V {o}{o}{o}{u} --next turn

The unit lost ONE point of health by the end of its turn receiving ONE {u} at the beginning of its next turn. At this stage, the unit has 3 health and 1 unrecoverable health

-1b-
V {o}{o}{o}{o} --before combat
V {o}{o}{o}{x} --after defensive combat
V {o}{o}{o}{x} --begin turn

The unit lost ONE point of health by defending but does not receive a {u} because it's turn is just beginning, therefore the {x} can be recovered if the unit does nothing during its turn. At this stage, the unit has 3 health and 1 recoverable health

-1c-
V {o}{o}{o}{o} --before combat
V {o}{o}{o}{x} --after defensive combat
V {o}{o}{o}{x} --begin turn & moves & end turn
V {o}{o}{o}{u} --next turn

The unit lost ONE point of health by defending but does not receive a {u} because it's turn is just beginning. The unit moves on its turn and by the turn's end, has ONE lost health point. Next turn it receives a {u}. At this stage, the unit has 3 health and 1 unrecoverable health

-2-
V {o}{o}{o}{o} --before combat
V {o}{o}{o}{x} --after offensive combat & end turn
V {o}{o}{o}{u} --next turn & before combat
V {o}{o}{x}{u} --after offensive combat & end turn
V {o}{o}{x}{u} --next turn

The unit lost ONE point of health by the end of its turn receiving ONE {u} at the beginning of its next turn. After another turn of offensive combat, the unit lost another health point but since it already has ONE existing {u}, it does not receive another on its next turn. On the 2nd turn, the {x} is recoverable as normal. At this stage, the unit has 2 health, 1 recoverable health and 1 unrecoverable health

-3-
V {o}{o}{o}{o} --before combat
V {o}{o}{o}{x} --after offensive combat & end turn
V {o}{o}{o}{u} --next turn & before combat
V {o}{x}{x}{u} --after offensive combat & end turn
V {o}{x}{u}{u} --next turn

The unit lost ONE point of health by the end of its turn receiving ONE {u} at the beginning of its next turn. Another turn of offensive combat, the unit lost 2 more health points. Since the unit already had an existing {u}, it receives ONE more, for a total of 2 {u} by its next turn. At this stage, the unit has 1 health, 1 recoverable health and 2 unrecoverable health

-4-
V {o}{o}{o}{o} --before combat
V {o}{x}{x}{x} --after offensive combat & end turn
V {o}{u}{u}{u} --next turn

The unit lost THREE points of health by the end of its turn receiving THREE {u} at the beginning of its next turn. At this stage, the unit has 1 health and 3 unrecoverable health.


I've had some difficulty explaining the concept in words, and even in the examples given, I'm not sure if it's clear enough. Hopefully its understandable

-Pacifist-
"There are some things that time cannot mend. Some hurts that go too deep" -Frodo (LotR: TRotK)

 

[Che Guava]

Pacifist: I like this concept a whole lot! Just a few things I want to ask you about...

(1) What exactly is the difference between {x} and {u} in practice? What I mean to say is, in the situation in 1b for example, would that unit with a recovereable health {x} be able to recover it by fortifying in home/neutral territory? Or only in a city, but for free? Or would that {x} become a {u} as soon as the unit made a a move (eg two turns after being attacked)?

(2) Where can a unit recover? Where exactly is the battlefield: outside your borders, in enemy territory or just outside cities? Would you still pick up {u}'s in friendly territory?

(3) In there anything that you could do to imrpove battlefield recovery? I guess what I was thinking of was perhaps a promotion, or an advance/wonder (battlefield medicine?) that could change this situation at all? Maybe having battlefield medicine would mean that your units could only get a maximum of half thier health's being {u}'s (all others would be {x}'s, recoverable in neatral/home territory)

Your model is pretty clear and the examples are great, jsut hoping to clarify a few points and try to build on them a little!

 

[Mewtarthio]

Not only that, but even if reinforcements costed resources, the new recruits CANNOT have the same bonuses the old ones had. A unit (or group of soldiers) which have been through 10 battles and gain alot of experience cannot be equal to the new "kids" who just joined them

Well, then, how about this explanation:

When you're badly wounded Elite unit enters a city, it gains new recruits from the local population.
When the new recruits are waiting out in the new recruit waiting place, the old veterans hold a seance and summon the ghosts of their dead comrades.
The ghosts of their dead comrades enter the building and spiritually possess the new recruits.

And so the unit keeps it's experience without technically ressurecting the dead!

 

[sir_schwick]

@Pacifist

I like the idea, but have some changes. Also, to make the post look less imposing, do examples by using the system. It just appears more organized.

I like the { }, or health container, concept but some of the implementation is not so good in my opinion. Also, there would be a lot more containers since HP is now in large numbers. Here is my take on the issue:

Part of the theorhetical lose of HP is truely a loss of organization, which can be repaired on the field. Some of that loss is strength loss, which means it requires retraining and reinforcement. Here are some examples of what I mean:

Spoiler Regulars and Veterans :

A Veteran losses one unit of health during battle. The first lost health container is always a {x} because that was more of a organizational loss than manpower loss. If the unit is in supply and not on the move, it will turn that {x} into an {o}.

Before {o}{o}{o}{o}
After {o}{o}{o}{x}
Next Turn {o}{o}{o}{o}


EXAMPLE II
That same veteran gets attacked a second time after losing the first HP container. At this point losses are going to be permanent until reinforcement. However the original logistical losses will go away when in supply and not on the move.

Before {o}{o}{o}{o}
After {o}{o}{u}{x}
Next Turn{o}{o}{u}{o}


EXAMPLE III
That same veteran gets attacked on the second turn, losing two HP containers. Like before the first HP hit of a turn is against organization.

Before {o}{o}{u}{o}
After {o}{u}{u}{x}
Next Turn {o}{u}{u}{o}


EXAMPLE IV
That same veteran keeps getting attacked and loses another two HP containers. Now he is all out, even though one of them will return next turn. Since he is depleted, the unit dies. Even though the first container each turn is recoverable, it still counts against what you can lose before dieing.

Before {o}{u}{u}{o}
After {u}{u}{u}{x}
Next Turn N/A

Spoiler Elites :

Elites are very useful because they know how to keep bad situations from destroying the unit permanently. This means the first two containers of damage each turn are just organizational, rather than permanent. This unit lost 2 HP containers this turn. It regains them when in supply and not moving next turn.

Before {o}{o}{o}{o}{o}
After {o}{o}{o}{x}{x}
Next Turn {o}{o}{o}{o}{o}

EXAMPLE II
Elites can take pretty good beatings and still recover somewhat in the field. This time the Elite takes 3 HP containers the first turn, gets hit for another 3 HP containers the second turn. Technically it has taken 6 points in damage, but it was spread out and the elite status helped it be tough.

Before {o}{o}{o}{o}{o}
After {o}{o}{u}{x}{x}
Next Turn {o}{o}{u}{o}{o}

Before {o}{o}{u}{o}{o}
After {o}{u}{u}{x}{x}
Next Turn {o}{u}{u}{o}{o}

Spoiler Conscripts :

Conscripts tend to panic and make a bad situation worse. This means that all hits against conscripts are permanent. This conscript took an HP of health in damage.

Before {o}{o}
After {o}{u}
Next Turn {o}{u}

I do think that when you replenish {u}s to {o} in a military facility(barracks, airport, field base), the hammer costs should be proportional to damage fixed and hammer cost of unit originally.

Also this leaves options for certain unit attacks and promotions. Some examples follow:

Spoiler BLITZ :

The great value of Armor in early WWII was its ability to ruthlessly disrupt enemy infantry organization in preparation for a divisonal level infantry assault. This means that if you do a Blitz attack with a tank, damage is doubled but it all results in {x} damaged rather than {u} damage. If you do it well enough, then the temporary extra damage can destroy the unit.

Spoiler Tactical Bombing :

Against soft targets, tactical and dive bombers tend only to cause disruption rather than destruction. So against all non-mechanized units, bombers and fighters only cause {x} damage.

Spoiler Cut Off :

Every x number of turns a unit is out of supply, it incurs a unit of {x} damage along with not fixing any of the current x damage. This should take care of SODs rather easily.

 

[Mewtarthio]

That makes much more sense. However, I doubt even Elite units could have two nasty turns without incurring some damage.

It's a bit moot anyway since CivIV's HP system will be percentage-based and you won't improve resilience unless you choose the "Combat" XP bonuses.

 

[sir_schwick]

It's a bit moot anyway since CivIV's HP system will be percentage-based and you won't improve resilience unless you choose the "Combat" XP bonuses.

Very true, but then you just change containers to percentages. The base percentage for draftees is 4%, without barracks training 10% and with barracks training 15%. THen you could add resilience as an XP bonus choice. Also the percentages or arbitrary of course, just a guideline to think about.

 

[Pacifist]

@Che Guava
Heh! Glad you like it. I already like the current unit health system of Civ3 but I can also relate to Fachy's concern with regards to full recovery so I came up with this concept

Just to clarify some things ...

First, I'm using a "container" concept to handle unit health. The container can either be filled or empty, recoverable or unrecoverable.

Think of your average drink bottle. The bottle is the container. You can fill it up, you can empty it. If you close the bottle, you can't fill it. When you open the bottle, you can fill it up. The same logic applies to the health container concept.

Second,
-defensive combat is when the AI initiates the attack on YOUR units
-offensive combat is when YOU initiate the attack on AI units

Addressing your questions ...

(1) What exactly is the difference between {x} and {u} in practice?
What I mean to say is, in the situation in 1b for example, would that unit with a recovereable health {x} be able to recover it by fortifying in home/neutral territory? Or only in a city, but for free? Or would that {x} become a {u} as soon as the unit made a a move (eg two turns after being attacked)?

{x} is a unit's depleted health container. The cause would be from sustaining damage from combat, either attacking or defending or being bombarded. {x} can be restored as normal (i.e. the unit skips its turn to heal the damage). Restored {x} becomes {o}, {o} being a restored health container.

{u} is used in conjunction with {o} and {x} to keep track of the unit's MAXIMUM health as well as to indicate how many unrecoverable health a unit has received according the the concept rules.

A unit (say a conscript) will have ...
C {o}{o} --TWO health, TWO maximum
C {o}{x} --a damaged conscript, ONE health plus ONE damage, still TWO maximum
C {o}{u} --a damaged conscipt that cannot fully recover, ONE health plus ONE unrecoverable health, still TWO maximum

Therefore, at the BEGINNING of your turn, if a unit has ...
- {x}, it can be restored as normal
- {u}, the damage cannot be restored (simulating severe losses of lives)

This is the 1b example

V {o}{o}{o}{o} --before combat
V {o}{o}{o}{x} --after defensive combat
V {o}{o}{o}{x} --begin turn

The {x} after defensive combat is the damage the unit sustained from combat after defending itself. The unit survived the assault and you begin your turn. The {x} at the beginning of your turn can be recovered as normal (i.e. in home/neutral territory or in enemy territory with battlefield medicine)

So to answer your question about the example ...
- would that unit with a recovereable health {x} be able to recover it by fortifying in home/neutral territory? YES
- Or only in a city, but for free? In a city, a unit with {x} can restore it as normal (so in a city, restoring {x} is free). A barracks works as normal (can recover all {x} in ONE turn for free)
- Or would that {x} become a {u} as soon as the unit made a a move (eg two turns after being attacked)? YES. It becomes a {u} because by the END of the turn, the unit has ONE lost health and still has ZERO total {u}. (I suppose this could simulate the chaos during war i.e leaving the wounded, no time to tend to the wounded, etc.)

(2) Where can a unit recover?
Where exactly is the battlefield: outside your borders, in enemy territory or just outside cities? Would you still pick up {u}'s in friendly territory?

A unit can recover ANYWHERE, just like in Civ3 as long as you have the requirements (i.e. battlefield medicine in hostile borders)

The "battlefield" is defined as any tile/terrain that is NOT a city.

{u} can ONLY be recovered in cities (obviously, your cities will be in friendly territory )

3) In there anything that you could do to imrpove battlefield recovery?
I guess what I was thinking of was perhaps a promotion, or an advance/wonder (battlefield medicine?) that could change this situation at all? Maybe having battlefield medicine would mean that your units could only get a maximum of half thier health's being {u}'s (all others would be {x}'s, recoverable in neatral/home territory)

To improve battlefield recovery, research battlefield medicine as normal, which allows units to recover in hostile borders. No speedy recoveries in battle (perhaps in a fantasy/sci-fi setting only hehe, magic healing potions or those gizmos they use in Star Trek, tricorders was it? )

As for your suggestion with battlefield medicine, I never thought of that. Sounds good
But instead of battlefield medicine allowing half-recovery of {u}'s, NOT having the tech would NOT allow you to recover {u}'s. Only when you research the tech that you can recover {u}'s as well as allowing {x}'s to be recovered in hostile borders.

As for promotions, that would be handled as normal. The unit would gain ONE health container that is filled, that would be the {o} symbol in my concept.

For example ...
R {o}{o}{u} --before promotion
V {o}{o}{o}{u} --after promotion

I hope that clarifies things a little


@sir_schwick
Yes, how I presented the idea does look imposing It really isn't though. It's a fairly simple concept but the way it works I had some difficulty putting into words. I'm sure there is a better way to explain the concept in a simple and understandable manner.

Thanks for the advice on how to use examples more effectively too. I'll keep it in mind in future.

I like your changes too. I like the way the unit levels have been taken into account, allowing the most experienced a better chance of survival. I like the idea of organizational loss being tied to unit level, which is recoverable during battle. Good thinking

My idea though is moulded around the idea of how badly a unit is damaged in ONE turn, which I use to simulate the severity of the losses of lives, damaged equipment, etc.

As for recovery costs (shields) for replenishing {u}'s to {o}'s being proportional to damage, while it does sound fair, I think for simplicity, ONE shield per {u} to be recovered should be good enough. I mean, if unit support (Civ3) could be simplified enough so that X amount of gold can support ONE unit above the government support limit, ONE shield should be good enough to support health recovery


My apologies for using 'shields' as production. Just translate that to hammers if it bugs the heck out of you


@Mewtarthio
I was not aware that the health system has been changed. If indeed it is percentage based, I suppose the concept proposed could still be used. Just need to find the appropriate percentage values which would fit the proposed concept.

I'll have to wait and see how Civ4 unit health is handled first before I can iron out the details

-Pacifist-
"If you prick us do we not bleed?" -W.S.

 

[sir_schwick]

As for recovery costs (shields) for replenishing {u}'s to {o}'s being proportional to damage, while it does sound fair, I think for simplicity, ONE shield per {u} to be recovered should be good enough. I mean, if unit support (Civ3) could be simplified enough so that X amount of gold can support ONE unit above the government support limit, ONE shield should be good enough to support health recovery

I agree that one shield per x percentage makes it simpler, but it has the same issue the gold maintenance system had. In the first 10% of Civ 3(40 turns in Civ 4) 1 gold per unit over was a big deal. However by the middle of the game losing 40 gold per turn for being over the limit was not a big deal. Hammer costs scale over the game because of increased productivity. If maintenance and reinforcement costs remain static, they seem to lose any value. Now scoring major victories against a larger opponent would be valuable. They would have to direct major resources to fix their broken units rather than losing a .5% of production for one turn.

 

[Quitos]

i am for Full recovery... leave realism out of the subject... becasue if you want realism one should expect units to undergo progressive weakening when they are deep in enemy terretory and there is some enemy units between them and their civ!! (supply lines are cut).. a city with enemy units surrounding it should not participate gold or science to the civ. (blocked) and you should not be able to control it (blocking of communication)... blah blah blah...

consider unit recovery as new conscripts joining in... the maintenance cost is an approximation to the training and maintanence of new conscripts.. as in reality rarely a soldier works more than 50 years... so a unit is dynamically refreshed.. soldiers got retired.. new soldiers come in.. and that is included in mainteance cost!