Unofficial 1500AD start.

[kairob]

Hi I have finished an unofficial 1500AD start and was wanting people to help me test it for balance, game play, realism and any mistakes or bugs. Feedback is appreciated and the files are attached.

The playable civs are;

China
Japan
Spain
France
England
Russia
Netherlands
Portugal
Turkey

Currently america dies on startup if chosen as a human player, I would really appreciate it if someone better at python than myself had a look for the problem. EDIT: Also the techs don't appear properly either. Again, I would really appreciate someone wise with python to help me out.

I have tried to limit the amount of civs (like Persia and India almost got put in) because it should help keep the turn times down.

 

[Agent327]

Sounds interesting; will have a go at it when I have time.

 

[ZachScape]

A 1500 AD starts sounds really complicated if you read my posts on it in the WSWRN? (What shall we research next) thread.

So I think we should basically start from scratch in terms of balancing techs, units, and production.
So for such a late start, here is what I propose:

-Replacing old civs for new (We don't need civs like Greece, Babylon, Persia, Khmer IMO anymore. Instead we need Austria (in any other start than this, I admit Austria is ridiculous to have as a civ. But the major role in world affairs makes it a critical nation from 1700 onwards), Brazil, Argentina, and Holy Rome (I think HR should be the 600 AD Byzantine Empire counterpart in this mod, keeping it separate from Germany spawning in 1860s. We can also possibly have the CSA, and a USA UHV of destroying it by 1900 (I'm torn on this, we could just code a "random" event in instead, as that may be a bit more appropriate).

-The other 600 AD CP should be Mongolia, being destroyed quickly by revolutions.

-Renaming civs
*Aztec (can it have 2 respawns in case it gets destroyed?)- Mexico
*Rome-Italy
*Inca - Argentina (as with Az-Mex)

-New Units, Techs, Buildings, and Wonders
This will be big! But keep the # of added units and especially buildings/wonders to a low.
ince we only have a 500 year window opposed to a 5000 year window in generic RFC, I think new units is appropriate to keep the game exciting. So for ex, we can add Wolfshanze's naval units, along with some units from RFCE. We can also include early tanks and biplanes as well as more modern planes.
Wonders could be like the Sydney OH, and some from RoM, Hist of the 3 Kingdoms, and RFCE. We can also include the Empire State Building and the Petronas towers. I would get ecited about the Burj Dubai as well for a late game wonder. Buildings could be from the same places.

-Respawns I recommend:
*German (1860s)
*Italy (1860)
*China (1645) (Qing)

-New Resources:
OK, this may be pushing it, but maybe a few such as Porcelain (available through trade only), and Bison (filling the place of cows in the Great Plains).



I have more suggestions, but they are in the WSWRN? thread.

 

[kairob]

That would be good, but far beyond my capability.

For the moment I just need someone who gets python to see why my attempts don't work. I have marked all the changes I made with my name (kai) in the folder so just a quick look will do.

 

[3Miro]

That would be good, but far beyond my capability.

For the moment I just need someone who gets python to see why my attempts don't work. I have marked all the changes I made with my name (kai) in the folder so just a quick look will do.

Here is your fix. It contains two extra Python files that had to be edited. The edited stuff is commended as 3Miro and there are some comments. Basically you had couple of typos (which I should be the last person to criticize about) and some functions were being called too early in the process (plague and conquerors on contact with the Aztecs). The WB file is not included, but the one that you had would work fine.

Unfortunately spawning America is harder. You have to work with C++ and change the .dll file (the code is within). You can try to read on changing the C++ from the modding wiki, there is a bunch of stuff to be installed and so on and so forth. So America still doesn't work.

You can make another one, just for America, thought this one can be just a savegame.

You owe me a beer

 

[Agent327]

Trying the Dutch I noticed they start with no vessels and no techs. (Haven't checked if more civs start that way.)

 

[kairob]

Yeah JEELEN, thats probably what with it not working, try the fix 3Miro generously made. : I am going to upload the fixed version in the first post as well.

 

[Agent327]

I see - will try again.

 

[-Perceval-]

A 1500 AD starts sounds really complicated if you read my posts on it in the WSWRN? (What shall we research next) thread.

So I think we should basically start from scratch in terms of balancing techs, units, and production.
So for such a late start, here is what I propose:

-Replacing old civs for new (We don't need civs like Greece, Babylon, Persia, Khmer IMO anymore. Instead we need Austria (in any other start than this, I admit Austria is ridiculous to have as a civ. But the major role in world affairs makes it a critical nation from 1700 onwards), Brazil, Argentina, and Holy Rome (I think HR should be the 600 AD Byzantine Empire counterpart in this mod, keeping it separate from Germany spawning in 1860s. We can also possibly have the CSA, and a USA UHV of destroying it by 1900 (I'm torn on this, we could just code a "random" event in instead, as that may be a bit more appropriate).

-The other 600 AD CP should be Mongolia, being destroyed quickly by revolutions.

-Renaming civs
*Aztec (can it have 2 respawns in case it gets destroyed?)- Mexico
*Rome-Italy
*Inca - Argentina (as with Az-Mex)

-New Units, Techs, Buildings, and Wonders
This will be big! But keep the # of added units and especially buildings/wonders to a low.
ince we only have a 500 year window opposed to a 5000 year window in generic RFC, I think new units is appropriate to keep the game exciting. So for ex, we can add Wolfshanze's naval units, along with some units from RFCE. We can also include early tanks and biplanes as well as more modern planes.
Wonders could be like the Sydney OH, and some from RoM, Hist of the 3 Kingdoms, and RFCE. We can also include the Empire State Building and the Petronas towers. I would get ecited about the Burj Dubai as well for a late game wonder. Buildings could be from the same places.

-Respawns I recommend:
*German (1860s)
*Italy (1860)
*China (1645) (Qing)

-New Resources:
OK, this may be pushing it, but maybe a few such as Porcelain (available through trade only), and Bison (filling the place of cows in the Great Plains).



I have more suggestions, but they are in the WSWRN? thread.

Aztecs and incans was still alive in 1500...

 

[ZachScape]

I know, I was saying can they have to respawns in case they are conquered early. So say the Aztecs get conquered in 1560, could they respawn in 1810? If they stay alive by some chance, most likely as a human player or vassal, it would be negated. But it's spawn zone would be all of Mexico's historical land.
Same with Inca and the Argentinian independence.

Would this be possible?

 

[Agent327]

Same with Inca and the Argentinian independence.

Incas originated in Peru, though.

 

[almeida]

In 1500 Portugal had already started his colonial empire and discovered Brazil in this year

 

[kairob]

True, but I was thought the game would be a lot tydier if everyone started off in europe and went out from their...

 

[ZachScape]

Incas originated in Peru, though.

Crap, meant Peru, honestly.

Spoiler :

BTW! Where is your smiley?:
,,
Mine in this case would be:
, although a bit silly.

 

[kairob]

OK, the basic version has been up a while and so I am wondering if anyone able to code would be willing to make an expansion of it.

The new version I see containing the following.

Fixes:
A few more wonders in the game from the start (including the great wall)
Some way to stop the euros automatically discovering the East Asian civs.
America Playable
Some knights added to Russia's starting troops so they can take Rostov more easily

New features (Inspired by ZachScape's list):
Germany playable and spawning in the 19th century.
Also other possible civs for inclusion would be;
Austria
Persia
Egypt
Italy
Brazil
Canada
Australia
South Africa
I was thinking these and any others people wanted to suggest could be put into a poll to see which ones people want.

These would be either added and replacing another civ or given a latter spawn date so they can still be playable

 

[Agent327]

You could add this a a Scenario Request as well.

 

[dagriggstar]

I'm not fussed about turn times, never been an issue for me since I got my new laptop ))))))

Would've thought 1450 AD would've made a better startdate...

- Spain isn't pratically guaranteed the conquers event (though it should have a high probability)
- Seige of Istanbul (ok, by this stage you'd have a unit stack and it'd be a formality...but still)
- Only Portugal at that point has colonies (Madeira, Azores, Arguin I beleive) but no-one else does, makes it less messy.
- Grenada (Southern Spain) is still Arab

Qing should be in it from the begining in my opinion but as a vassal of Ming China. Give them a strong UU and the UHV condition to control China by say 1675 AD and... )))))

Of the civs not mentioned yet...
Tibet as vassal of Ming China. 1 - Buddhist Holy City (Make India less good, Buddhism was no longer a major religion there either) 2 - Qing UHV condition of Controlling 3 Holy cities (Could we copy/paste the Persian UHV condition and apply to Qing?). Cultural based UHV's was thinking use the Khmer as sortof the "base civ" here...

Gotta have Persia to counter Ottoman expansion in Asia...

No love for Sweden/Kalmar union ? Would've thought trying to control the Baltic would make a good UHV (though the UP might need changing to increased yields from water tiles)

Ethiopia might be too isolationist for inclusion...Though I like the idea of 1 - don't loose a city before 1930 2- Build 2 christian cathedrals by 1700 and 3 - No European colonies in East Africa in 1885 (Synergy with the first condition means you not only have to expand but you also have to hold onto your empire)

India prob should spawn with the rise of the Mughal dynasty...Controlling all of India by say 1650 (1 UHV) but then having to switch to gold production (2 UHV) say the most in the world in 1750 AD ensures that they're tech backwards so Euro could over-run them...

Zulu with a UP for +2 first strikes and mod the Impi to give it a chance to withdraw could be fun too. Impi stack vs acouple of rifleman might actually be able to do something then

The other potential civ I'll mention is the Sioux. There's room for them and with the startdate you could place horses (or alternatively, make horses "appear" similar to how you can discover gold/iron etc. in your mines) in NA (Final option is to change the UB to something that generates horses). Keeping the great plains native would be a real challenge...Big fan of having the US UHV condition "Manifest Destiny" setup against a Sioux condition "allow no foreign cities in the great plains in 1880"

Having a Japanese civ spawn around the time of Tokugawa would be good. It'd also make the no foreign culture in Japan UHV condition actually a challenge...Also might mention that I've changed the UB in my version to a "shiro" (Japanese castle) that gives extra science per specialist (to make Mercantism more attractive civic when playing as Japan). Did something similar with the Chinese UB but instead of science made specialists give more culture

 

[kairob]

@ JELEEN - That is an interesting thought, but would it be appropriate to ask for a scenario of a mod?

@dagriggstar - Some interesting points about new civs...
Persia sounds like an interesting Idea I think you might be right about adding them, but as for the others I think they would only work if we could extend the timeline (which I have heard is a lot of work...)

 

[Agent327]

Well, you can do both: post the request and ask on the mod's thread/forum. (Don't know which mod you have in mind, but there are modders creating scenarios for specific mods.)

 

[ZachScape]

I just typed this up on word, it’s long. The beginning is mostly directed towards dagg, end to everyone. I quoted myself often (has that ever been done). I wanted to get my ideas off the WSWRN? Thread and onto this. I really hope you don’t think I am coming off as pushy, just would like a little cultural diffusion with our ideas (I love that term, CD).

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm not fussed about turn times, never been an issue for me since I got my new laptop ))))))

Would've thought 1450 AD would've made a better startdate...

- Spain isn't pratically guaranteed the conquers event (though it should have a high probability)
- Seige of Istanbul (ok, by this stage you'd have a unit stack and it'd be a formality...but still)
- Only Portugal at that point has colonies (Madeira, Azores, Arguin I beleive) but no-one else does, makes it less messy.
- Grenada (Southern Spain) is still Arab

I thought this may create a problem, but I’ve came up with a solution:

I think anything we decide to do will be fun. But wouldn't you want to incorporate a quick 200 years (1500-1700) to show the excitement of colonization? The odds would be against any other civ besides Spain to get the conqueror's event, but it could add so much diversity to the game. The 1500s could be a matter of turns (possibly 10) which will only introduce you to the game. Only the Western Europeans will have the chance to see some early action.
-For example, in order for France or England to reach the Aztecs and Incas before Spain, they would have to declare war and sink their caravels against all odds, but the possibility could still remain.
The 1600s may be a bit longer starting in 1650, so say 15 turns. It would just be a chance for the Netherlands to cling onto their possessions in NA. But once the 1700s start, the game could pick up. We could see a Dutch Brazil, Dutch South Africa, and/ or a Dutch India. Or a French India. Or even Britain ousted from NA by the French.

And some other points:

I think instead of a 1700 AD start, it should be a 1500 AD start. Let's face it, for many of us, the colonization of the New World and Africa is the most exciting and intense part of RFC(if your European). So here are a couple a reasons/ suggestions:
-10 years a turn from 1500-1700, when the focus of the game takes off.
-Spain won't automatically have all of South America (except Portuguese Brazil, which applies the same principle), Latin America, Florida, and the western half of the US.
-The Dutch could even hang onto New Amsterdam and South Africa (but the odds are against them).
-We could play as the Aztecs or Incas and try to fend off European conquest, but with a FAT chance.
-We could code the game so there is an initial civilization, but has a set spawn date in case it collapses, like for Egypt, Arabia, Inca, and Aztec Mexico.
-The Ottoman Empire wouldn't be a default superpower in Europe and the Mediterranean.


So post if you agree or disagree. And we have to prioritize historical accuracy and gameplay.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Qing should be in it from the begining in my opinion but as a vassal of Ming China. Give them a strong UU and the UHV condition to control China by say 1675 AD and... )))))

Of the civs not mentioned yet...
Tibet as vassal of Ming China. 1 - Buddhist Holy City (Make India less good, Buddhism was no longer a major religion there either) 2 - Qing UHV condition of Controlling 3 Holy cities (Could we copy/paste the Persian UHV condition and apply to Qing?). Cultural based UHV's was thinking use the Khmer as sortof the "base civ" here...

I honestly am not trying to bash on your ideas (I’m saying this because you can’t see emotion/body language, so just to clear things up), but I think there should be only one China, and especially no Tibet (1 city??). I’ll explain why... with another quote... and I have a couple more.

Anyone not too important on a world stage or a major revolution should not be a civilization.

RJ agreed, but said it differently and a little more clearly.

Yeah, I think we shouldn't aim for "400 civ because everybody want his own"

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

India prob should spawn with the rise of the Mughal dynasty...Controlling all of India by say 1650 (1 UHV) but then having to switch to gold production (2 UHV) say the most in the world in 1750 AD ensures that they're tech backwards so Euro could over-run them...

I think India should be independents, most likely to be colonized by the Euros, and spawn late. I’m not even close to adamant on this point. (I don't care that much)

The other potential civ I'll mention is the Sioux. There's room for them and with the startdate you could place horses (or alternatively, make horses "appear" similar to how you can discover gold/iron etc. in your mines) in NA (Final option is to change the UB to something that generates horses). Keeping the great plains native would be a real challenge...Big fan of having the US UHV condition "Manifest Destiny" setup against a Sioux condition "allow no foreign cities in the great plains in 1880"

Do you think a NA civ would be that good of an idea, especially playable? What cities would they have? Maybe they could be like the Celts if included, but we should avoid the civ spam as much as possible.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

A couple more points I would like to share:

So the Ottoman Empire will be the new Roman Empire with Egypt, Greece, and Arabia (I don't think it should. I think it should only Rise if the Ottomans collapse (is that possible?)). Spain, Portugal, and possibly England (if we include commonwealth) will get wrecked from spawns.

If it is 1500, here's how I think it should start:
Warning: Very Large Image
EDIT: It's actually not that large. It was A LOT bigger on paint.

Spoiler :

The black represents independents and native. It looks like a lot from this picture, but it would be a few cities here and there. It also supports imperialism. Russia will be able to conquer West, South, and East, Europeans could take cities in indy India and SE Asia, yadi yada.
I added Austria in this because I think it plays a major role in world events, especially in the 1800 and 1900s. It is not big enough for RFC 4000 or 600, but would definitely play a major role in a 1500/1700 start.
I also think that this project won't on the scale of the 600 AD mod, but much, MUCH higher. We won't be satisfied with our current wonders or units. We would need more modern wonders, and scrap some of the old fantasy ones, like the Hanging Gardens, the colossus, and others. With only a 500/300 year time frame, we are going to have redo a lot.
2nd EDIT: We would also have to redo a lot of the UUs.

And on a completely irrelevant note (still from the WSWRN? Thread):

Spoiler :

And Summer's, here, which equals more rapid progress for anything we do, with freed up schedules. But I may be busy at my new job, Toys R US! I applied yesterday, and hopefully I'll be accepted. I mean... who wouldn't want me?

I had an interview yesterday and got the job! yā!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

& btw, you can call me Zach... I sometimes do a double take when I see ZachScape, and plus it’d probably be easier to type.